Within the last couple of months I've visited a Hapkido school a couple times. Often I like to go around town and meet other instructors and see how other schools are doing. I have been there 3 times once to watch and 2 times to workout with them. I want to try to explain something without sounding arrogant. I have a couple of gripes about how their class is conducted. The instructor does not get on the mat with the students, he usually just stands to the side in his tennis shoes and tells his students what to do. They only work out for 40 minutes at most. It's supposed to start at 6:30 and go to 7:30 but they always start late and get done early. They only workout 2 times a week. Because of this none of the students retain the knowledge from a previous rank. It's not really a workout. There is no stretching or warm-up before they start doing jointlocks. All of his students are black belts and the most recent one has been there under 2 years. I could go on, but I think I've exceeded a couple of gripes. So, you may ask why I bother training with these guys. Well, I've been asking myself the same question. Part of me wants to show these guys that what they are doing is not Hapkido (or at least not how I learned it) and that they're getting gypped out of their money. But, most of all I just enjoy meeting new people that do martial arts and sharing with them. The more people I get to work with on jointlocks the more that I learn about the human body. The 5th dan that ran the classes when I was there had a very open mind and was happy to see me the couple times that I came in. In fact the last time I was there he said "I really enjoy it when you workout with us, I learn something new every time." That's a big complement coming from a 5th dan. But, it really shouldn't be that way. Anyway, now that I've supplied a back story, here is what frustrated me last night. I usually went to the class on Mondays because the 5th dan instructor told me that's when I should come because the owner of the school (7th Dan I think) only wants people that are paying for class to attend and he's usually not there on Mondays. So, I walk in last night and low and behold the owner of the school was teaching class, and the 5th dan was no where to be found. Let's call the 7th dan Mr. Blocks. Mr. Blocks was finishing up the Tae kwon do class that usually proceeds the Hapkido class. I said hello to him and he said that he would be with me in a moment. As some of his Hapkido students walked in they said hello to me. After Mr. Blocks finished up the class he walked over to me with a semi-menacing look and I extended my hand and introduced myself and told him who my instructor was. He acted like he didn't know him (which was odd because most people who have been around the NE martial arts scene for as long as he has knows him, but oh well). I told him that I had worked out there a couple of times and that I was told that I had an open invitation to train there occasionally. Mr. Blocks told me that this wasn't so. That he wanted people that attend his classes to join the school and pay their dues. He said that he usually allows 2 free sessions to see if you like the school. Since I had already been there a couple of times I would have to join to be able to participate. He said that he was sure that my instructor would operate the same way. There was a brief pause as I tried to figure out the best thing to say. He did not smile throughout the conversation and was very cold. He never asked me anything about my experience level or how long I've been training or any small talk about martial arts. I told him that I understood and that it was nice to meet him. I turned around and left. I did understand, he is running a business and he has the right to deny anyone to train, especially if they don't pay for the services. However this is not how Mr. Burnett (my instructor) does things. We had people with other martial arts backgrounds come in to our school all of the time and workout. Granted they didn't come to every class, but they were always welcome. If they liked it enough they usually decided to join and pay. In fact half of my instructor's student base was martial artists who had left other schools (including me). Sharing views, education, and making a good repoire with other martial artists was his goal, and it is mine now that I teach. In that brief moment when I was standing there thinking of what to say, several things ran through my head. I wanted to ask Mr. Blocks: What does your school have to offer me? Do you ever suit up and worked out with your students? Who were your instructors in traditional Hapkido (see below)? What do you have to offer me? I really wanted to tell him that I could take out all of his students easily, so why would I train there? But, he could just come back and say, so why are you here, which I'm still not sure of. I did send the 5th dan instructor an email apologizing in case I had gotten him into trouble. I also told him that he and his students were welcome to come by anytime and workout. It probably is wrong of me to be upset with Mr. Blocks in this situation. It is his school and he can run it anyway he wishes. It's just not the way that I was brought up in the martial arts. What is your schools policy on allowing other experienced martial artists to come in and train occasionally? Has anyone else had a similar situation? --There was some controversy a decade back about him going to a set of Hapkido seminars as a TKD 6th dan and returning with a 6th dan in Hapkido, after no prior Hapkido training.
I think it would be great to be able to freely work out at other HKD schools but, unfortunately things do not work that way in Korean MA. Korean Masters are very territorial and I think that this mentality often develops in their american students as well. Typically you cannot just drop by and work out. The master you visit may say yes if drop by and ask to work out, but as soon as you leave your own Master will get a phone call about it. This is a big departure from my experience in the world of Japanese Martial arts. I do not know about traditional karate, but if you are involved in Kendo, Aikido or Judo you can basicaly visit and work out in any dojo. If they do not know you or your teacher it is usually respectful to contact the head instructor of that dojo to make arangments, but visitors are definitely welcome. I have been told that this is based upon a tradition back in samurai days when a Marial Artist would travel around the country visiting other schools to test his ability and enhance his knowledge ( if he survived). There is a japanese word for this tradition that I do not recal but it is usually called "Dojo Hopping" and this practice is not only ok, but it is heavily encouraged as a way to keep your skills sharp. Is there a similar tradition in the Korean MA? So far as I can tell their is not, but I may be wrong.
Trying to look at it from the 7th dan's point of view, perhaps he was curious why a senior student of another school was coming in. Perhaps some students told him you were "helping them" or maybe said the dreaded "Well...Mr. Jointlock does it this way." He may fear you are looking to steal students, subvert his authority, or something. I know your intentions are honorable, but he probably doesn't. Further, as you say, it is his school and his business. Perhaps he feels that each student should only go to one school (as some people believe) and knowing that you are loyal to your instructor and not intending to sign up fulltime at this school... he may doubt your intentions. Perhaps you can have your instructor invite this man and his students to visit, or co-host a seminar. This could open up better feelings and maybe relations. We get quite a few coming in. People who get in 4-5 times a year, we don't charge. For more frequent, we sell single class passes for $5 each (actually it's a bundle of 8). We like the exchange of ideas and varied experiences as well as training partners (and sparring partners) from other systems. However, the implication is that they are here to learn our system and share where appropriate. If a student was trying to poach students or drastically change the way things are done, we'd have a talk with them. We're open about cross training and stuff, but unless we set up a class by an instructor of another art, we ask that visitors respect our teaching and follow the guidelines of the class.
In many of the Japanese arts if you come for more than one or two free classes ,and you come from another school,you pay a nominal mat fee and sign a waiver,you are not obligated to pay a monthly fee. (when I participated in Aikido we were under the Banner of the aikikai,so we could visit and train at the Aikikai with Yamada Sensei for a small mat fee) In the Hapkido class I attend,my Instructor carries this same concept over. (a mat fee for an infrequent visitor) The only exception is when students come infrequently to start and pay a mat fee and then begin to come to regular classes,then they are no longer just guests,they are more formal students and are then asked to pay for and join as regular students. (if this were not done the other students would wonder why they pay full rates and not mat fees)
The mat fee sounds good to me. I would much rather put up a couple bucks to train 1 night every couple of months. I think this is a great solution.
The first day that I was there I gave them my card and invited them to train anytime. The next time I came in, I invited the 5th dan to my upcoming testing, he seemed really excited about coming. He then asked me if I'd like to workout that night and I said sure. I had brought my gear in the car just in case he asked me. Obviously the 7th dan had no idea any of this was going on. Whenever someone has come to our school that has martial arts experience, we usually have them go through our regular class, then set aside some time to have them conduct a drill or show some type of defense showing off their art/skill. Other instructors have also done this with me. I take special care not to disagree or undermine an instructor in front of his students. I would hate that if it happened to me and I wouldn't expect to get invited back. When I have taught classes in other schools I have a speech that I usually recite before beginning my class: "As you go through my class you will notice that I do some things differently than your instructor. It does not mean that his way is wrong or that my way is wrong. There are many different ways to do something correctly. While you're in my class please make an effort to try it my way. If you like it take it with you, now you know 2 ways to do the same thing, if not discard it. Please keep an open mind."
Originally Posted by Jointlock Whenever someone has come to our school that has martial arts experience, we usually have them go through our regular class, then set aside some time to have them conduct a drill or show some type of defense showing off their art/skill. Other instructors have also done this with me. I take special care not to disagree or undermine an instructor in front of his students. I would hate that if it happened to me and I wouldn't expect to get invited back. When I have taught classes in other schools I have a speech that I usually recite before beginning my class: "As you go through my class you will notice that I do some things differently than your instructor. It does not mean that his way is wrong or that my way is wrong. There are many different ways to do something correctly. While you're in my class please make an effort to try it my way. If you like it take it with you, now you know 2 ways to do the same thing, if not discard it. Please keep an open mind." Jointlock; I couldn't agree with you more. I too often invite instructors from other styles to act as guest instructors. I'm also invited to demonstrate Combat Hapkido at other schools. It's a win / win situation for all of us.You have my respect. Master Bob Ingersoll 6th Dan Combat Hapkido 4th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido
Since Mr. Blocks likely knows of Master Burnett, it is apparent that Mr. Blocks was feeling a bit inadequate. He most probably made the assumption that you know more about the art than even he does, therefore he felt that you were a threat to his business. This may or may not really be an issue, as any hardcore student probably wouldn't settle for his sorry excuse for a Dojang, unless they truly don't know any better. Hopefully some of those students make it to your testing. A sign on the door that says how many BB this belt factory has produced is like advertising as a McDojang. Maybe someday he will have his own set of golden arches stating over $$$$ black belts to date.
Hey, I could not imagine taking instruction from the "sidelines". Even when our instructor is injured he is in uniform and trying to figure out what he can do without hurting himself further. I am only 5 months in the making, ok, and in that time we have had a guy attend a couple of classes to train with us that knew Arnis-Kali-Eskrima. Our instructor let him show us the basics and a lock or two. It was like added value to me. Hapkido_D
In our dojo (Japanese traditional karate) we have had guests in the past, but they are generally invited by the head instructor, and are often old friends of his or their students. These folks have brought some great material into our dojo, including new forms, weapons, etc. which have been retained and incorporated into our style. If someone came in off the street from another dojo wanting to train with us, he would be viewed with suspicion. Without knowing something about him and his instructor, I doubt that he'd be allowed on the floor, although he'd likely be invited to watch. The problem is that one never knows his motivations in training; he may be sincerely interested in what we do and wanting to expand their repertoire, or he may be looking to show us up somewhere or even looking to pick a fight. There is also the aspect of liability, which here in California is not something to be taken lightly... what if he gets hurt during the training session, or hurts one of our other students?
Thanks for your comment Nomadwanders. I agree with most of what you said. And I feel like I went through those very steps in my situation. I guess the wrong instructor was there that night. Most of the people that I train with outside of my school have been people that I met at tournaments or seminars or martial artists that trained with my instructor, or people that I work with that do martial arts. Like you said you never know someones intentions that come in off the street, but most of the time I give people the benifit of the doubt.
i know this guy i checked out his school for TKD when i 1st moved to lincoln, he gave me a good song and dance how he knew both sets of tkd forms that i knew. (Taeguek and Chong Hi) I went a couple times and asked him a question about Gwan Gai and he looked at me like i was on drugs. My wife and i stayed for the Hapkido part and one of his students got a little rough with me in a standing drill, so i got rough back and for the rest of the class i was working with just my wife. we didn't go back. Good class on Sat btw Mr. Cather
Thanks Mr. Spiecker (did I spell that right?). It's a small world! I noticed that you have been on MAP for about the same amount of time as me. We've even posted on a couple of different threads together. And just by coincidence you end up at our school. That's awesome. I've been meaning to ask you and your wife to come to one of my regular Hapkido classes. You are both welcome anytime. It's always great to get some more experienced people to work out with. Hopefully see you around the Dojang.
