Women's self defence - falsehoods

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by mmafiter, Jun 23, 2002.

  1. mmafiter

    mmafiter New Member

    I have seen some of these women's self defence seminars and classes that are taught in martial arts (I used to be an instructor in a women's defence program) and I sometimes just shake my head at the stuff they are teaching/telling these women to do.

    First off I think you have to tell women that despite all the feminist rhetoric, they ARE generally the weaker sex, physically. Now, usually women get ****ed off, but if your going to try and defend yourself, the politically correct answer isn't going to cut it. Women are generally physically weaker, it's the truth so you might as well be honest and spend your time accordingly, not learning techniques that require you to overpower your opponent.

    Keep it simple. I can't believe some of the flashy or unrealistic crap I see these guys trying to teach these women! Pressure points?!:rolleyes:

    Get serious. When I used to teach a self defence class, one section was on groundwork and I would show a basic technique from guard. Many women would say "Ewww....I don't want to roll around on the ground with another woman." and giggle. To which I would reply "Where do you think your rapist is trying to get you? What is he trying to do to you? He's trying to pin you on the ground while he gets between your legs and violently enters your body!" It's the height of stupidity to think to yourself as you are being attacked "Man, I wish I wasn't so squeamish in those self defence classes." Grow up.

    I quit teaching these classes because generally, i feel they give women a false sense of security, the instructors themselves are in effect preying on these women, but for financial gain. The height of this was the Tae-Bo craze. I'm sure it's a great workout, but when the ads have women saying they feel like they can really defend themselves after kicking and punching in the air for 30 minutes a day, theyare selling a false sense of security that WILL get some woman hurt.

    Thoughts? Get the barbeque ready........flame away!

    :woo: :rolleyes:
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    We run classes like that. Generally the techniques taught consist of pull his groin off, claw his eyes out, stamp through his foot with the high heels which if you were sensible you wouldn't be wearing because you'd have been able to run away but because you are wearing you may as well use, hit him in the throat, that type of thing. Not nice stuff to be on the receiving end of, even in practice.
  3. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

  4. ladyhawk

    ladyhawk Valued Member

    I agree about men be physically stronger.

    Teach the average person self defense using the K.I.S.S. method...Keep It Simple Stupid or as someone recently replied to that statement in another post Keep It Savagely Simple.

    The average woman needs to learm simple practical techniques that will be easily remembered in a high stress situation. Fancy moves aren't going
    to save their butts if they can't remember the mechanics of them.

    In the dojo women are partnered with men so you might as well get over your shyness. I have no problem having a guy straddling my hips while I'm learning how to get him off of me and believe me they don't make it easy because your attacker is not going to make it easy. It doesn't bother me
    to pull a man's hand closer to my chest so a technique will be more effective. These things become natural after awhile. I don't know, maybe
    we become desensitize in training....but there was that time a guy took off his gi top to do sanchin kata in competition, Oh my, that got my attention. Oppps! Sorry, my mind wandered. OK, not completely desensitize. Anyway Martial Arts and Self Defense Training is physical so get over it.
    I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for quitting teaching women's defense classes.
  5. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I've help one of my instructors with womens self defence classes a couple of times and the key I feel is getting them to just be able to be aggressive! Mmafiter, your comments about squeamishness are well founded. Normally we lose about half the class in the first 2 weeks because people are expecting to come into a nice controlled envirnoment where everybodies friendly, WRONG! The first class is normally just a sit down chat with the class telling them what to expect, that self protection is 90% mental. They come to the class the next week and theres guys like me set to tear them apart (not really) but we have to make them believe (as part of Goshin Do we do controlled aggression training which comes in handy in these classes). Alot of the class don't like the intensity of the class and leave (go down the road to 'the other guy' who teaches women to kick men in the head!).

    You have to be prepared for the aggression, cause if you loose the initative your ****ed!

  6. mmafiter

    mmafiter New Member

    Very good, I agree!

    I guess I forgot to explain why I quit teaching women's self defence classes. Mainly, because I was part of an organization that had a set way of teaching and I didn't agree with them. Unrealistic movements and a false sense of confidence......I couldn't bring myself to fool these women. Then I went on to teach women on my own, and found thier "girly" attitudes and lack of interest frustrating.

    Funny story, I was teaching a womens self defence class and everything is going along great. People were asking questions (which I love), and I was patiently answering them to the best of my ability. Unforunately there was one woman who kept asking silly nonsense questions such as; "What if I'm wearing pantyhose? What if I'm wearing high heels?" etc.

    Finally I was getting tired of these type of questions and when she asked, "What if I'm wearing a short tight skirt?" I replied "You know what you do? You hike that skirt up, kick off your high heel shoes and run your ass off! Who cares if everyone and thier brother sees your fat ass flapping in the breeze, get tough and survive or be a nice girl and get assaulted."

    The whole class was looking at me and they were in shock. I had to do some quick explaining to get myself out of that one.:D
  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Generally we'll start off with the class being nice and controlled, letting them get the hang of techniques without panicking, and then as lessons go by bring in the agression, when they feel ready to cope with it. It means we don't throw them in at the deep end, so more stay around and learn how to handle it, its just slower, and doesn't scare people off in the first class.
  8. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    I can see why you think all women have this girly attitude after that example. Maybe the class just wasn't right for the woman? I have to admit if I heard you say that to her, I would have cheered you on. (Maybe I am insensitive as well as desensitised?)

    A lot of MEN and WOMEN think they are going to martial arts to come out like Jackie Chan and Jet Li. They seem to think that all it requires is buying the clothing and attending a couple of classes and they know all they need to know. I realise I have only been doing training for 2 years now - but in that two years, I have trained and trained. I have worked maybe even a little bit harder than my male counterparts because I feel I have to prove something to myself (I dunno, maybe I have). I don't think I am let off lightly or treated any different from anyone else in the class. If I was - I would leave. Maybe me and ladyhawke are unusual, but the other women in my class can spar and work out just as hard as the men do so far. Anyway...enough of my rant, I think I have made my point?
  9. fluffydoc

    fluffydoc Carry On MAPper

    I agree with Melanie's point. It made me wonder if women that will put the effort in and take it seriously train as martial artists whereas "girly" girls looking for a quick answer go to women's self defense? Having never been to a women's self defense class I'm not placed to comment. Anyone got any thoughts on that?
  10. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I did a self-defense course at school, mainly because the other options were (shudder) football or tennis, but me and a friend were the only two guys on the course. Anyway the instructor took everyone through various grips, releases, defenses and so on. At this time I'd been studying CKD for a few years, and he seemed to be saying stuff that would look really good when you were trying it with your friends, but wouldn't work against someone who really wanted to hurt you. Later on in the course about half of the girls started to complain along similar lines to those I was thinking on. Apparently they'd had the sense to go home and get their older brothers to put them in these grips. Older brothers are vicious (I should know, I am one) and the stuff they had been taught simply didn't work. The instructor hummed and hahhed a bit and then tried to brush over the issue and move on to techniques.

    Those girls who went home to practice on their own time were looking for a geniune defense course, and they were given a load of rubbish. This was finally decided on the last day of the course. The instructor wanted everyone to run through a roleplay with him, walking down an alley and he'd throw in a random attack of some kind. Having a reputation as being the victim of the school I was kind of looking forward to this, since I'd have a chance to correct that, but anyway. The roleplaying started, and he began the attacks with everyone watching. A few of the girls who'd complained earlier in the course had spoken to me and asked about what I'd been taught for these same attacks, so I showed them. Most of the girls used his defenses and while they looked good it was fairly clear that he was allowing them to throw him off. When it came to the girls who'd asked me though (I don't want to claim credit at all in this, I simply passed on some of the basic stuff I was taught) he seemed suprised that they were able to escape. He seemed to be more aggressive against those who'd complained earlier in the course.

    Anyway, finally it got to my turn. The guy seemed to have something against boys in his classes so he really went in for the attack, clamping into a lapel grab and hoisting me off the floor. Forgetting everything he'd taught me (which was to reach up under the arms and push at a point just above the elbow) I reverted to my original training. Pull up both legs fast, kick down, inwards punch as soon as you hit the floor and get away.

    This guy, who'd been teaching all of this people 'self-defense' folded with one punch from a fifteen year old kid. He hadn't seen it coming, hadn't even tried to defend against it. It could be argued that he didn't expect it but anyway, if he was so bad at defending himself what on earth was he doing teaching this course?

    I think there's a point in there somewhere, either way what I'm trying to say is that not only 'girly girls' go to self defense courses, some do really want to learn, but one bad experience can put them off for life. None of those girls expressed any interest in doing any sort of advanced course taught by the same instructor, or even by another instructor except for four, one who'd complained and the three who'd asked me about alternate defenses, and they said that they'd only do the course if they could have a different instructor and demanded mine.
  11. waya

    waya Valued Member

    In women's self defense classes I have seen, it's usually variations of more traditional techniques that the instructor knows. Also, most instructors in those classes don't cover any information outside of those techniques. I generally cover the different date rape drugs, what to do if you lose the fight and actually are raped (let's face it, the possibility does exist), how to make sure there is evidence on their body (skin under nails, etc.) as well as simple, more effective techniques. Yes, it takes a couple weeks to cover it all, but I don't like to miss anything that could be important.

  12. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Not enough classes cover the whole rape scenario. We do and I will say it does make me feel uncomfortable doing it as I'mm usually one of the 'rapists' and have to make it as real as possible (see my previous post) which is where I get really uncomfortable. But (and yes I must be slightly twisted) its a great feeling when one of your students shows that real 'evil' aggression they'll need to survive and rip your ears off and smack your head into the wall!

    I'll sure most of you will agree that the real point to 'proper' courses is to instill confidence and some common sense (keep away from thoses side streets where your on your own!), I'm not gonna say that confidence will mean your never attacked but theres more chance if you look like a victim!

  13. Thomas Vince

    Thomas Vince New Member

    WHAT A GGOD TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Here is my favorite phrase.

    "I just want to learn a few moves to protect my self."

    Christ if were that simple I just wasted 20 years of my life!

    I have seen some really terrible Women Self Defense classes! I even heard a Man in a class one time say to women : "A Man will more than likely NOT hit a woman." WHAT???? If he is a real predator he will knock the **** out of ya!

    Women need to get real about self defense and realise that it is the awareness and preparation in defense of vulnerability that is 90% of thier self defense.

    How many times have you seen someone in the car the window rolled down and the pocket calculater or pager or notepad is out and they are writing and totally unaware of their surroundings, AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Stupid People!
    But that is the very we exist as Instructors isn't it? May ignorance flourish so that we can educate!
  14. alienladd

    alienladd I come in peace

    I love it! :D

    Straight guys! Straight girls!
    Straight to the point!

    :D :D :D :D
  15. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    So Thomas earns his crust by taking stupid peoples money!?!? ;)

    Awareness is king! If your serious about protecting yourself you have to be aware of your surroundings. And what makes me sick is the amount of people who walk the streets staring at their feet WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT!!!! Your feet'll always be there, unless you don't notice the madman with the machette sneeking up behind you to cut them off!

    If people are going to take self defence (or rather self protection) seriously they have to make it part of their life!

  16. fluffydoc

    fluffydoc Carry On MAPper

    I live most of my life in trainers or lace-ups/boots but occasionally have to wear "nice" shoes for a posh night out. Any other women (or cross-dressing men) feel uncomfortable doing this?
  17. ladyhawk

    ladyhawk Valued Member

    LOL! Sneakers, hiking boots and bare feet are what I'm comfortable in.

    I was in a business meeting a few weeks ago. Had on what would be considered a casual, dressy skirt and top. I took off my shoes while we were at the table discussing a project. We took a break and I was out the door and half way down the hall before I realize I was bare foot.
  18. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    High heels are a great weapon, as I was once asked

    "Whats gonna hurt you more? If I hit you in the temple with my fist, or with the heel of this!"

    I've had some twisted, cross-dressing... ah I mean cross-training, Instructors!
  19. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    Question to the teachers of Women's self defence:
    What techniques do you think work best and should teach?

    Question to the ladies who may be interested in the classes?
    What situations can you think of that you may end up in that you would want an instructor to teach?
  20. Thomas Vince

    Thomas Vince New Member

    A right punch, hooking type
    a left punch, hooking type
    a front choke one hand and two hand
    wrists grabs
    shoulder grabs
    shoulder and wrist comb grabs
    rear bear hug
    rear one arm hug and one hand over the mouth
    rear one arm choke and one hand over the mouth
    I feel basics shouls include elbows, knees and the heel of the palm strikes. Women tend to have smaller wrists and takes to much time to teach a punch properly, not all women but most will hurt the wrist.

    Choke techniques up against a wall and still another where there is nothing behind her.

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