KC. What I'm doing is expressing an opinion, not attacking anyone. I'm neither a dictator nor dictatorial. Take a look at my early posts again, I've always given my kids a choice in this matter. Not only that, but, I have taken every care to be non-sexist in my kids upbringing. My boys also face the self same decision to make on the same subject. From your (and others) replies it seems that you want to be treated like 'one of the boys' and then like a Lady when it suits you. Life don't work like that, you have to chose one thing or the other, nobody can have it all. Pats.
You dont pick 1 thing to be and stick at that irrelevant of circumstances. For instance, my attitude/opinions change several times daily, dependant upon who I am with, or where I am..... Im a father/husband at home, a colleague in work, a mate in the pub, a student in MA class, an anonymous in the gym, and something of a hybrid on MAP .... and thats only a quick few off the top of my head. If I picked one type of person I was to be, people would get pretty annoyed with me pretty quick....
We all want to be treated fairly. Just because we want to be taken seriously in a martial arts environment does not mean we have to lose our femininity. We may not seem so girly when we're going at it sparring but our personality does not change and to hang around with the guys at our MA class does not mean we have to start acting manly too.
Listen, I'll never be Lord anything. I've worked bloody hard to get where I have, and coming from the very lowest of society I take pleasure in what has been accomplished. I have needed to take risks in my life, both business and physical, my kids do not have any need to take risks. I do what I have because I LOVE them not due to an inflated sense of ego, which seems to be, being implied. Pats.
I think rather Scarlet is implying your ideals come accross as arcaic, or out-dated in reference to women in MA. The fact you include your sons in it just makes the issue confusing. Can we not agree to disagree on this, as there is obviously not the possibility of compromise....
Yes, I see it now. You were the fierce buisness man and fighter, feared all over. And now known as the Aristocratic Assasin. And the fact that your kids don't have to work very hard doesn't make them lucky, not at all. I'm not calling you a bad man, or anything, and I understand that you're doing what you think is best, and for this reason you shouldn't be expected to change it. But be aware - the rest of the world does not think this way, and it will be very hard for your offspring to maintain your ideals or way of life you expect.
I'm with SP on this "Can we not agree to disagree on this, as there is obviously not the possibility of compromise..." Yes that helps a bit ... I just wish that I can show you that it is not so black & white as you see it.... but perhaps something positive will come by this discussion I have enjoyed trying to convey my feelings as I am sure you have also.
Yes we can agree to disagree, but I would point out that there was a lot less trouble & strife in the world when "my arcaic ideals" were consided to be 'the norm' for western society. You have only to consult a reliable history book in order to verify that fact. Pats.
What? My history books inform me that most people were unhappy, while a few very very happy and comfortable. The distribution of wealth was very skewed and poor families scarcely had a way to change their standing. Then all that changed with urbanization and railroads and what not. Or am I wrong.
Scarlet. I wasn't sufficiently specific. I was refering to recent history; 1950/1960's. Regards. Pats.
KT, I've always valued your judgement and the fair way you've looked at peoples opinions and ideas. You've never jumped to conclusions about anybody and I think you are right about this guy also.
Funnily enough Pats, i am writing my thesis on this very subject - the idea of a postmodern feminism that has adapted to suit the times we live in, where women's involvement in so-called 'masculine' endeavours does not in any way compromise their status as 'ladies'. Similarly, if a man likes flower arranging, knitting and baking, it would not change the fact that he is a gentleman, as i believe that ladies & gentlemen are so called because of their social decorum, their manners etc. A guy i work with recently found out i am into kickboxing. He was shocked and said "God, i would have said ballet dancer, but not kickboxer" ( :woo: ) Thinking about it now, this probably came from idea you have that, women who are involved in MA could not be ladylike. But the fact is, i AM a lady (apparently more like a ballet dancer than anyhting else - the epitome of 'ladylike' passtimes), as i'm sure are most of the female members on this forum - it's just that we don't sit at home reading the good housewives guide, put our husbands pipe & slippers by the door and make ourselves look pretty so he is pleased when he returns to his domain.... Times have changes Pats - but you wont change your opininions through anything we can say to you, and thats ok, they're your opinions. I find what you say mildly insulting - until i remember that such near-sighted and blinkered views are rarely worth taking note of. I know i'm a lady, and am treated as such by everyone that knows me. I may not be able to darn your socks for you, but i could beat the stuffing out of a potential rapist, and i reckon thats the skill i'd prefer to know.
hee hee i just saw this post now - the era of the good housewives guide like i just mentioned... yeah everyone was much happier then. Except women of course, but that's besides the point, eh pats?
There is something awesome about this discussion- The fact that pretty much all but one person on this thread have a very positive view of women and the martial arts, and that everyone is taking women's equality with men for granted. That is something that certainly would not have happened in a discussion about this matter only 30 years ago. Pastyti's is truly a dying breed, except in places like Iran and Afgahnistan... I would also like to add a little something about women's self defense / rape prevention (apologies if this has already been said)- Rape happens amongst all classes, from the richest of the rich, to the poorest of the poor. It affects all women equally, being raped by a wealthy uncle is no less damaging than being raped by a stranger in a cold water flat. A father or husband may think he can always protect his daughter or wife from such a thing, but that is simply not the case. It is beneficial to all women to learn self defense, regardless of your family's class.
Presumably also beat the stuffing out of a potential or actual partner/husband as well, when they turn up late having worked their **** into the ground 16/18 hours a day, when you have had too much to drink, have a headache, are pre-menstural, the kids are acting up, the car won't start, you have a burst pipe, there's a power cut, Etc, etc, etc. Grow up!! I lived through the 50's & 60's, I had two parents (married, but this is increasingly unusual) who both worked. So nothing revolutionary in the concept of a working mother. We always had a good meal on the table when I got in from school, and fresh, ironed, laundry available from the airing cupboard. In short the 50' & 60's were not the dark ages as you seem to portray them as being. You would have had to have lived them to appreciate the time, so I can not expect you to inteligently comment on something of which you have no knowledge. Do try and improve. 2/10 Pats.
It's very relevant to this discussion. Here's a link that summarizes the book nicely- http://www.enotes.com/feminine-mystique/ When Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique was first published in the United States in 1963, it exploded into American consciousness. Since its first publication, critics and popular readers have been sharply divided on their assessment of the work. However, one fact is certain: The Feminine Mystique sparked a national debate about women's roles and in time was recognized as one of the central works of the modern women's movement. Friedan began writing the work after she attended her fifteen-year college reunion at Smith, a women's college. At this reunion, she gave a questionnaire to two hundred of her fellow classmates, and the results confirmed what she had already suspected—many American women were unhappy and did not know why. After three women's magazines refused to publish Friedan's results, because they contradicted the conventional assumptions about femininity, Friedan spent five years researching and writing The Feminine Mystique. In the book, Friedan defines women's unhappiness as ‘‘the problem that has no name,’’ then she launches into a detailed exploration of what she believes causes this problem. Through her research—which includes many theories, statistics, and first-person accounts—Friedan pins the blame on an idealized image of femininity that she calls the feminine mystique. According to Friedan, women have been encouraged to confine themselves to the narrow roles of housewife and mother, foresaking education and career aspirations in the process. Friedan attempts to prove that the feminine mystique denies women the opportunity to develop their own identities, which can ultimately lead to problems for women and their families. Friedan sees the feminine mystique as a failed social experiment that World War II and the Cold War helped to create and which in turn contributed to postwar phenomena like the baby boom and the growth of suburbs. Although Friedan has written several more controversial works, The Feminine Mystique is the book that made her a household name, and it is still her best-known work.
