Wing Chun's wierd body dynamics are actually one of the things about it that I find fascinating. If you want a sure-fire proven method to fight there's always boxing, grappling, Muay Thai.... the very physical methods that dominate MMA. They dominate because they do work. Still, there are other arts that do things very differently. They may not work as well in a ring or cage... but I have always been interested I the people that follow the beat of a different drum. Wing Chun's punching methods kind of fall into that category. The elbow low, vertical fisted centerline punch seems counter-intuitive from a modern, boxing-based perspective. And the WC punch as practiced by a lot of 'chunners today can seem pretty lame. But there are people who make it work. In spite of everything. And that's not only interesting. It's useful. Think "element of surprise" especially in a self-defense situation (where your opponent isn't looking for something like this). [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798"]YouTube - Emin Boztepe punching[/ame] BTW--I don't belong to Emin's "Wing Tzun" group, but I do know him, and he does hit very hard. I have a friend who's a former boxer who now coaches MMA, who also hits very hard. I wouldn't want to get tagged by either one. Any thoughts?
interesting. his punches look solid, at least. don't like the spine thing, but there are probably a fair few nuances he isn't explaining. funny how he neglects to mention that the "arm only" punch he does at the beginning puts none of your weight behind it when making the comparisons, and then conveniently mentions moving into the strike, which both karate and boxing do. technique-wise, reminded me of xing yi's beng chuan.
That's exactly what intrigues me. He starts by showing just the arm-only part, which if done right might crack your nose, but not much more.... then he starts breaking down the other elements that are added on top of that. The upward wrist snap, the "whiplash effect" created by holding back the shoulder at extension, the straightening movement of the spine, the forward movement of the body with a step or a turn, and so on. He continues in a second clip, but this is enough to get the general idea that a good WC punch has to coordinate all of these elements. You don't just hit with your arm alone. Like other martial arts, you use your whole body, just differently.
I am a student of EBMAS, my sihing/teacher is a student of Emin's, and man.. even the students that have been with him for just a few years, small in size, can deliver quite a punch, especially when it's coordinated with the entire body. by stepping through the opponent and using the adduction in our step, we transfer our full body weight into the punch, the spine energy is a bit weird, and it takes a fair amount of practice to put it to good use, but it really does assist with the full mechanics of the punch, we can start the punch off from our stomach area, with the elbow down low, and rise up with the elbow, coordinating it with our spine, as the arm reaches full extension we lock back our wrist and pull our shoulder back, allowing the energy to travel freely from us into the object we strike. It's really very very strange to be frank! I am quite athletic, and expected to walk in and be the star student off the bat, but it takes A LOT of hard work and dedication to make these very counter-intuitive body mechanics to work. Than you get into the principals, and as sound as they are, it's again, counter intuitive to do some of the things we do, like moving into a powerful strike to shut it down. At first glance it seems strange, but with an open mind and solid practice, it becomes second nature, and in my opinion incredibly efficient!
what i was referring to was the very common double standard of oversimplifying a comparison with other martial arts in order to make one's own seem super-powerful once one starts explaining all the details. he shows a static arm punch, then goes on about how karate and boxing use limited power generation methods because they are static (which they are not), and then says that the wing chun punch is powerful because they move forwards (which both karate and boxing do, and is pretty much the only fricking way to put meaningful power into that kind of strike). but yes, i get what you mean. it would be interesting to study his punching biomechanics in-depth and then correlate it to kinesiology and muscle activation to understand it better. as an example of this, the reason why i do not like his spine movement is because in my experience, that kind of movement (or at least what it appears to be) throws your weight backwards, preventing correct force transfer from the body to the attacking arm, and can even put pressure on your vertebra on impact (besides the tactical consideration that it could extend your abdominal wall, leaving it in a less than optimal state to receive a blow, such as a hook to the liver or spleen, or a straight to the solar plexus). in this respect, i would honestly like to know exactly what he's doing with his ribcage and shoulder girdle positioning when he does it.
@nabakatsu: interesting. would you be willing to elaborate on the exact mechanics of the spinal movement?
Well, Emin is also very huge. If he was a foot shorter and 40 kilos lighter it would be a different story.
Emin is built like a brick (no swearing) house, no doubt, but he's not really that tall. Mr. Fish, from my understanding our punch has multiple levels, I'm sure you've heard this before if you've done even a little bit of research on wing chun, but the power is drawn up from the ground, to the ankle, from there it moves to the knee, from there the hips and waist, as it's traveling upwards, as we open our chest, and straighten our spine, it's in conjunction with our arm, this motion serves to propel the frontal area of our body forwards and than back, like our shoulder, which helps to add momentum to our punch and than release the energy down through the elbow to the wrist, and than into the target. With a static punch, the spinal energy still will add to the impact, it certainly helps to add upward force to our punches, which helps to maintain one of the main objectives of our lineage, which is to uproot our opponent, and take away his balance. Hopefully this added a little something to my explanation, if not, feel free to ask a specific question and I will do my best! :hat:
8 posts in and I have to edit posts for profanity. NaBaKaTsu - TOS states no swearing as this is a family site. Understood that this is your first couple of posts and you might have missed it while you signed up. So hear you go.. ...the rest can be found at the bottom of the screen.
but what exactly are the mechanics of the spine straightening?. in the OP's video, it looks like mr. boztepe is rotating his ribcage as his shoulders go back. in my experience, hitting or pushing someone while doing that will damn near break your spine, so i suspect he is not, in fact, doing that . as an example of the kinds of details i'm interested in, when you straighten the spine for sanchin in the naha-te lineages of karate, the ribcage rotates the other way (ie the chest is pushed down towards the abdomen), the hips are relaxed and slightly tucked, the pelvic floor is contracted, and the abdominal wall is contracted in such a way as to generate downwards pressure, which focuses a good amount of the body's force on the lower abdomen (dan tien/hara), which is then used as the focus of the movements. much appreciated if you could provide that level of detail, and if not, cheers anyway
Hmmm, not sure what else I can really add, but I'll do my best! I'll just start over, and try to be more detailed. In our fighting stance, we have as close to 100% of the weight on our back legs as we can, our front leg is squeezing together at the thigh level, to maintain our rooted-ness. our hips are tilted out a little, but we also sit down in our stance, a common mistake is people lock out their hips, and this separates their lower body from their upper body. Our punch gains almost all of it's power through the step. anyways, to try and get to the spinal energy, it's not a compression, but a lifting and expanding, we're using it to stretch out, make ourselves longer, and add an upward momentum to our strike. It's something we do typically on the first, or what we think will be the last punch, We throw quite a few strikes per second, and wouldn't be able (or I wouldn't be able) to do this motion every time. The motion puts no strain on the back at all, it travels up through the ground into our punch, and back down into our stance. I've moved back guys twice my weight using this method and never injured myself in the slightest. I don't think the mechanics are akin to what your referring to, we try to be as loose as possible (with our upper bodies) to transmit as much energy into our strikes as possible. Yet again, sorry if this wasn't what your looking for, I'm not sure if Geezer's lineage employs the spinal energy, but I'd be pretty surprised if not, and he certainly is a senor practitioner than I. Cheers!
Thanks for posting the vid, Geezer. I like Emin. I'm interested in Wing Chuns concepts and will begin training with Gary Lam here in Los Angeles. It's a whole new thing from what I've been training over the years. I also like your take on things. Keep it up.
Interestingly enough, a lot of the mechanics look very similar to tate tsuki from karate. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKC4psE6B_8"]YouTube - karate tate tsuki[/ame] Coincidence? Probably not. I could see this working. I could also see it not working. It boils down to how you as the practitioner are going to train it.
they seem similar because pretty much all TMA vertical fist straight punches are the same when done properly the main difference in the technique itself (power generation through posture aside) is IMO how you roll the wrist, as karate uses the seiken, and thus breaks the general scheme of moving adjacent joints in different directions (which in the horizontal fist is more or less conserved by using the twist of the arm and wrist), and gives the seiken tate zuki a bit of a downwards movement (from the wrist and elbow engaging in the same direction), kind of as if you were dropping your fist on the target, which can or not be emphasized, depending on your personal preference (i think it's pretty neat, particularly if you keep a high guard)
Definitely not a coincidence. Many ryu of Karate show a strong Southern Chinese kung-fu influence. I'm not familiar with this particular punching technique from karate, but I notice that in addition to using a vertical fist, they add a downward articulation to the wrist which would drive the top knucke into the target. Although this is the opposite of what Emin shows in the previous clip, it is also used in WC... it appears in the Biu Tze form ins the "five thunder-punches" and is a staple of other related kung fu systems like Hakka, Fukien Crane, Pak Mei, and so on. Thanks for the enlightening video.
A lot of evidence points to karate being influenced a lot by Fujian White Crane, so there's quite a lot of similarities between karate and kung fu.
