Discussion in 'Kickboxing' started by Domestic_Rat, Aug 9, 2005.
Do you in fact mean that WC is all about not getting hit in the head?
You'll need to define the distinction, but I should also add that protecting the head is only 40% another 40% of course is about hitting your opponents head.
What most kickboxers term as guarding their head is in fact keeping both hands tucked in close to the chin in order to catch shots they dont see coming whereas I guessed that when you say guard the head you mean block incoming shots or dodge them or something like that.
My mate does mixed kung fu stuff, and he uses wing chun style punches. When I did TSD with him, his hands were far too fast for me to defend against. However, when you're actually making a reasonable amount of contact with someone it's a different story. He is far, far, far bigger and stronger than me, yet my punches are at least as powerful as his because I use boxing punches. Speed is all well and good as long as you don't sacrifice too much power.
And please, don't start talking to me about how he's not using teh real wing chun, this is just what I've found from my experience, I may be wrong, and I really don't give two hoots about what lineage he is.
Just my 2p:
I think power in the WC punch comes from 3 things:
The alignment is of the bones to give a good penetrating punch, which can take a while to learn because it feels very un-natural at first.
Hip turning is obvious really. The twisting motion gets weight behind the punch.
Footwork depends on the situation. If you just turn/pivot/shift or whatever you call it, if you really drop the knee as you turn, then you will get even more mass behind your attack. This takes some time to get the co-ordination right and you have to be careful not to over-do the dropping.
If you step, you can also drop the knee and shift the weight as you land the foot. I think it's important to get this in as a reflex action, and again the co-ordination is difficult to master.
But eventually, when all 3 are put together you can get a relatively powerful whipping punch. I think there's something in the Biu Tze form that gives additional power but I'm not sure what it's all about yet.
As for WC not protecting the head, there is a principle in WC "cotton like body, glass like head". In other words it's saying that you shouldn't rely on being able to "take" punches because the body and head are fragile. Hence why it's important to do something about it before it gets that far.
It's unrealistic to stop every single attack over an arbitrary period of time however.
Anonymouse is right. In Wing Chun we first stood still and punced in a very rooted position. But as we progressed my trainer stressed on how important footwork is. Some nights we only practiced footwork for an hour and a half.
Many times my trainer said that we should practice footwork more than anything else. (I still suck at it though)
Ps - Oh yea, Bill Gee. My Wing Chun instructor has pracriced martial arts since he was 8 years old. He's now 33. He's seventh dan in Kickboxing, Wing Chun and Tai-Chi. You know why he teaches us martial arts? He said it himself: "Because I can learn from you guys"
Think about that.
Thinking hard, but can't work out how that fits in with anything I've posted. Are you on drugs?
"Don't lean, step in!" (when hitting)
Sounds about right, fast hands and good instinctive control of the centreline. The trade off is that you don't get the full power of a boxers hook. However, a finger strike to the eyes, a punch to the throat etc don't need enormous power to drop the opponent to the floor. Off course WC never settles for one blow and always aims to take full advantage of an openining with a rapid succession of blows such as chain punches.
We're not talking about eye gouges or throat strikes so let's leave that issue aside and concentrate on closed fist punching.
My mate wasn't getting the full power of a boxer's jab, let alone a hook. It's one thing punching too fast for me to defend against in light contact sparring where we're not allowed to to make contact with the head at all; it's quite another trying to knock someone out with them. Were it not for his great strength his punches would be annoying at best, and since I'm not a particularly good puncher anyway I'm not entirely convinced that even his WC punches would be any good.
If someone e.g. the original poster has succeeded with this strategy in full contact competition against people trying to actually take his head off then I will stand corrected. However, until then, my opinion must remain that wing chun punches - their closed fist variants at least - are rubbish in comparison to those of western boxing for this type of sport.
There is plenty of power in a Wing Chun punch, however, it probably takes a lot more time to train that power than it does for more conventional punching. I have been lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag, and I'm 6'2" and weigh just under 15 stones. I can't generate that kind of power yet, although I've got a lot closer over the last year. You really shouldn't draw any conclusions from your experience with one friend. Wing Chun takes 3-4 years solid training to develop real skill in the system.
My experience with my friend wasn't proof, but since he's been at it for a good couple of years I would expect him to have decent punching technique by now so it's still pretty suggestive to me; besides, you already admitted it's not as powerful as a boxer's hook. The actual proof, to me, is that boxing has been developing for thousands of years and you see it working in full contact combat sports all the time. If wing chun punches work better in a kickboxing match, or in any kind of full contact combat sport, then sorry but I want to see some hard proof; until then, boxing is far more plausible in this situation.
There is nothing wrong with single WC punches, if you do what I said in an earlier post, you can get your weight behind them, while retaining the snap, and also you will not be in danger of over-committing. But to get that all right takes a long time and then you have to constantly improve it. I am not a fan at all of continuous chain punching. It seems like a waste of energy to me, and brings back bad memories of WT days.
Bil Gee - had no idea about Liao, guess you have a right to be skeptical about her posts.
There's already been multiple methods to a Wing Chun punch defined on this thread, and I bet there are many other ways taught as well. It's too hard to gauge the power and technique of a Wing Chun punch because there's too many different interpretations of it. Experiences against the punch probably have the same varied results.
Just wanted to point out that WC is not unique in having finger jabs, punches to different vital targets, and rapid combinations of blows. Though it is interesting to note how many WCers (not you specifically Bil Gee) will claim this as some trump card that they can pull out against X style or Y set of rules.
The reason WC people always bring up those techniques is because a lot of schools practice them almost exclusively after a certain point. The reason for this is that once you are proficient in the basic movements and are able to produce a decent amount of power with your strikes, you are then trained to end a conflict as quick as possible, and to do that, WC prescribes that you strike these areas and use these techniques. They are practiced religiously.
that's been my experience, the focus is on linear strikes, using fa jing to vital points, particularly the neck and the eyes. Other arts may have it amongst other attacks, but it is a speciality of Wing Chun in that that's what we spend nearly all of our time training.
So, we've established the fact that a wing chun punch is not as powerful as a boxers hook. Now, you've been "lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag". Now, I would stand behind a kickbag, and put money on me not being sent flying backwards by a single boxer's hook to my chest. I am 5 foot 6 and weigh just over 75
I don't know, thankfully I've never been on receiving end of a boxers hook. I imagine that a hook from somebody like Tyson would probably break a regular persons skull into pieces though.
With gloves on, I don't think so.
Without gloves on....
Is that story true about Tyson, when he got ****ed off with someone and hit them, but ended up busting his hand to pieces because he wasn't used to punching with wraps and gloves.
With gloves on, he'd make a pretty bad mess of our faces.
I would doubt it, to be honest
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