wing chun and jeet kune do

They came Sijo

Look at the people he trained with - Jhoon Rhee, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Guro Dan, Larry Hartsell etc....to find Bruce's refinement you look at his process. The "common thread" aspect again.

Now whilst there are traces of the originating arts in there, the end result is specific to how Sijo refined them for himself.

JKD is not and never has been eclecticism - you can't take a TKD kick, karate punch and a few throws and call it JKD. Nor can you take Sijo Lees JKD and just paste it into anyone else.

 

Savate is definately a portion of JKD's kicking as well as some Gung Fu styles kicking methods. Wing Chun has some kicks but in WC there is no boxing with the foot where as a chasse or a coup de pie bas from savate are a major part of Jeet Teks.

 

am very much agree with this, especially with your last statement in this post

when i am learn jkd i practice what am taught by my instructors mainly from jun fan kung fu perspective and wing chun "preconceptions" like you say, so when look at jkd kicks i see as wing chun man sees, but you are right that jkd is really sijo lee's invention, not eclecticism, so jkd kicks really are not from wing chun, boxing, fencing, savate, taekwondo, muaythai, karate, etc. they are a process and invention of sijo lee himself

not so agree that you cant take bruce lee's jkd and "paste it into someone else", in my opinion am think you probably can do that, but then it would be against what sijo lee wanted for his student, it would become a stylized pattern, a mold, a style based on robots rather than a self-expression as bruce lee would've wanted it, am would only be imitating and making a mockery of him rather than being really jkd practitioners

when i am practice jkd i am try to learn as much as i can from bruce lee's films and documentaries, from bruce lee's original students in seattle, oakland and los angeles, from the youtube videos , documentaries, interviews and home videos created by bruce lee's students like linda lee caldwell, jesse glover, taky kimura, dan inosanto, ted wong, richard bustillo, jerry poteet and others who were close to sijo lee during his lifetime, and also from reading jkd books by respected well known authors like john little and of course from bruce lee's original writings and drawings..... then sometimes read the same books sijo lee read, or watch some of the styles sijo lee was exposed to and practice or show interest in, study some of the philosophy behind the process which led up to jkd, and combined that with my jkd classroom training under priveleged instructors of jkd to come up with my own notion and personalized style of jkd that is very specific to me

am still only a beginner after 3 years, but learn much from talking to people on web, had spoke to other jkd instructors like sifu lamar davis and whoever willing to talk on web and share knowledge..... today 2013 so everything i learn in jkd is very basic, from jump-roping to jogging, punching focus glove and kicking heavy bag, doing shadowboxing with variety of trapping, stepping and moving around, mirror training, sparring with partners, grappling and matwork, lead-hand and lead-foot manuevers from southpaw or byjong stance, stop hit and stop kick, all very basic stuff which i think today encompassed in many martial arts, not just jkd, so for me is very hard to say what jkd really is apart from personal experience, am just define it in a nutshell saying jkd means 'to intercept' even though that might just be a very narrow and limited interpretation

 

It would seem you have the answers you want even when you are told the truth.
You see there is what you think you know and what people know from sijo's writing and his friends. Bruce watched Savate 8 mm, Muhamed Ali's fights, etc etc. There was some things he put together but there was a lot more that was directly transplanted from the other fighting systems that he read about.

 

am always being told "no you are wrong" even when i dont say anything at all!! gets frustrating and confusing to say the least, you are say things like that is very confusing to me..... what i think i know? cuz apparently i dont know even what i think i know, but you do? i am know nothing, i am just beginner in jkd, but what is truth? i read bruce lee books, i train under jkd instructor, i talk to other instructors via email and MAP text, i say only what i learn by personal experience or are told by others..... what do people know from sijo's writing and his friends that are not known to everyone else? perhaps lack of exposure to some of the same writings and sources is what i think, or lack of people's ability to share their knowledge freely

am know bruce lee trained with jhoon rhee, chuck norris, larry hartsell, allen joe, dan inosanto and others, have actually met dan inosanto and larry hartsell in person before at jkd seminars, and also some of bruce lee's other students like jesse glover, ted wong, jerry poteet, have spoken to others via email like lamar davis, allen joe, andy kimura, david gallaher, gene lebelle, etc. and know of bruce lee's influence by jiddhu krishnamurti, his brother peter lee, his father lee hoi cheun, and influence from mohammed ali and all the people and styles we already discuss..... most of which by now is not secret, but common knowledge easy to find on the internet, a lot on youtube as well

but how does one see influences in jkd from other styles when having no training or experience in other styles? i train wing chun so i see wing chun when i train in jkd, but i am know this is not the way, sijo lee say you cannot look at jkd from the perspective of a kung fu man, a karate man, etc. etc. etc. so i know this but still it is hard when look at say..... savate, which i have no training in whatsoever apart from whatever you see in jkd that i do not see, so really what i think i know is honestly just that i know i do not know but am limited to what i know by what i see, hear, read and experience as a wing chun practitioner and beginner in jkd, which is why i am train in jkd and continue to research so learn more and more each day

does make sense?

so in a nutshell, going back to cause of discussion, jkd kicks come from many sources - okay and some transplanted directly into jkd from other styles, while some invented by sijo lee himself, and others indirectly transplanted and modified from other styles he was exposed to... so here we have say one guy jkd is not eclectic, another say yes jkd is eclectic, and another say jkd is both and neither, it is too confusing - that is why i just say in a nutshell, jkd is basically "to intercept" by any means and that's it, anything else is too much because too many people will say this and that and everything else is for arguing and confusion

one says "no you are wrong", jkd is this and this and this and this, you need simplicity, economy of motion, yadda yadda yadda, another say "no you also need that and that and that", jkd is not sport, jkd is street style without rules, jkd has ranks, jkd has no ranks, jkd is more boxing, jkd is more grappling, more kicking, more close range, more long range, jkd is a style, jkd is not a style, jkd is a concept..... no, am think that if you just say directly and simple "jkd means to intercept" then all things are already covered in less time, less words, less room for opinion and argument, because to intercept you need all those other things any way, and this still is the only thing i see focus in jkd which can even really distinguish it from other martial arts in today's mixed martial arts world

so this is my feel and your correction and feedback is welcome if you feel any different from what i just say, but again i ask this question..... and this time try not to answer a question with a question, just state how you feel

 

If JKD has no rank then ask them how come Bruce handed out ranks in it

If people say "JKD is not for sport" then ask them how Joe Lewis used it or how Bruce wrote explicitly about applying "JKD" to a sporting discipline

but most of all.....

If people say "JKD is different from "this" or "that" then let the name be wiped out; it's just a name...please don't fuss over it"

 

exactly

 

Hey, what do i know?
Do what ya like.
Everyone has their own opinion.

 

but yes, some will say there is definate style in jkd that is set apart unique to sijo lee's personal art and philosophy, they are calling it jun fan jeet kune do, then like hannibal say there is some who say jkd is not a sport, but joe lewis used jkd in sport very successfully, as did anderson silva, but other of sijo lee's students were not interested in sport fighting only in street defense like jerry poteet and ted wong, then some say jkd has definate ranks which taky kimura, james lee, dan inosanto and ted wong all had been given rank in jkd, but also sijo lee abandon ranking system so some say jkd have no ranks, others say you cannot learn jkd that jkd died with bruce lee, some say because sijo lee closed his schools that there is no such thing as legitimate jkd school, but others like dan inosanto continue to teach jkd in classrooms, then some will say jkd is mostly standup fighting like boxing, as was daniel lee, bob bremer and others, but also some will say jkd is mostly ground fighting like wrestling, as was gene lebelle, larry hartsell and others, so what is really jkd?

what i am learn is like a mix of all these things, taking influence from every jkd guy i encounter and train with, seeking to find my own jkd along the way, but liberation is difficult from narrow perspective as any stylist and unfortunately i can only view jkd in light of being first and foremost a wing chun guy as my foundation

 

My rank is from Inosanto lineage.

 

There's hope for you yet

 

question i have now is this - apart from our lineage to bruce lee, what makes jkd different from any other mixed martial arts school?

i visit several mma clubs and they all teach 5 ways of attack just like jkd, only at mma clubs you will usually find they teach actual "styles" meaning focus on one style per session, learning whole forms and everything, before ending session and starting next class/hour of training in a different style, whereas in the jkd class i go to there is only one class which teaches "everything" in one style that has no forms, meaning no traditional kuens/katas or one-person sets apart from shadowboxing

mma clubs teach things like traditional muaythai, karate, boxing, jujutsu, judo, taekwondo, etc. but in jkd there is only practice in jkd, but the training in jkd is similar to that of mma just more simplified, one day at jkd academy i might learn jkd standup fighting, while the next day i might learn jkd ground fighting, then maybe spend one whole day doing nothing at all but working out, running, jumping rope and lifting weights, whereas at the mma club there will be the same routine schedule every day, one class doing karate, one do muaythai, one in judo, etc. etc. all very traditional and sometimes mix them altogether into one system or program like military arts or combat training with focus on everything at once like jkd

also jkd academies tend to have lots of sparring, as do many mma clubs, so really - and especially if everyone has their own way of practicing jkd, the question remains what is the difference between jkd and mma? almost every mma club i go to practices orthodox fighting stance, whereas every jkd school i go to uses southpaw or byjong stance

so far everything i learn from jkd can be considered a type of mma between wing chun, boxing and jujutsu but that is only because i am not experience with savate, muaythai, taekwondo, fencing, eskrima, wrestling, karate or anything else that might be invisibly present during my jkd training, i am only experienced in wing chun

 

The end goal

The training methods are very similar - if not identical - because they are the most efficient methods. The goal at the end differs - MMA is for a specific purpose of success in a full contact competitive environment; JKD has applicability to that, but will sneak in a ball shot or an eye jab along the way because the end goal is self protection.

The reason so many JKD schools will decry MMA and "just sport" arts is because those "just sport arts" will kick the ass of anyone who is not training with similar levels of intensity and resistance...and people don;t like this so they use weasel terms like "we train for the street not the ring" to hide the fact they cannot actually fight

Bruce trained at levels of an athlete - like MMA
Bruce sparred - a lot! Like MMA
Bruce worked the bags, mitts and shields - like MMA
Bruce cross trained with strikers kickers and grapplers (to a greater or lesser degree) - like MMA

The only real difference is the sensitivity and trapping drills, and even there you can make a case for the thai clinch and the wrestlers pummel being variations

So why do so many vopices in the JKD world rally against MMA when the methods are pretty much the same? Because their ego is out of whack

 

have been to a mma club which has a class for street defense, very similar to some of the sneaky tactics used in jkd (or wing chun for that matter), so end goal at mma clubs can also be similar to jkd

but as martial artists, i dont think its important to hide the fact whether one can really fight or not, since humility is what is supposed to be striving for best and self-discipline, bruce lee say "if i tell you im really good, you will think i am boasting, but if i say im no good, then you know im lying" but okay, some people say "well i brag because i know im good" and others say "well you are being restrained so obviously you are no good" but what is really important? not everyone takes martial arts just to fight, some are interested in like you said, self-defense, others interested in sport, others for health, but who ever heard of a bully in martial arts? i think anyone who brags and talks about being good at fighting is just a punk, no different from a common street thug in my opinion, so most of the guys who know try not to share too much of their fighting experience, even if they are good, because they know it brings doubt and challenges from the peanut gallery

 

"If you ask me how good I am and I say I am good then i am boasting...but if I tell you that I am not that good you KNOW that I am lying" - Bruce Lee

 

Mma does not teach the elements of real jkd. Many socalled jkd schools dont even teach the true elements.

 

where i am learn jkd we do not use a set training sheet, but there are sheets for training and learning jkd with words in chinese, not in french or spanish or filipino, etc. but specifically in cantonese with english translation

also where i am learn jkd is knowledge of jkd lineage and history, with direct link to sijo bruce lee and occassional seminars with original 1st generation students of bruce lee, is how i am come to meet people like jesse glover, daniel lee, ted wong, jerry poteet, taky kimura, dan inosanto, richard bustillo, etc. and sometimes train with many 2nd generation jkd instructors, i myself am technically considered 3rd generation but i have trained with many 1st generation students of bruce lee before they passed away, and all are pretty much for the most part have similar stories and train the same way, no there is for me only one jkd and one jkd lineage

also where i have learn jkd is training in how to be ambidextrous, shifting stances and footwork, lots of cardio exercise and stamina endurance training like jogging, jump-roping, pushups, situps, squats, etc. and weight training, a lot of the very basic essentials to mma and sports like boxing, but main focus is on byjong stance or southpaw with most powerful hand forward and therefore closer to the target than most boxers

then i am learn the basics of wing chun, trapping skills, sensitivity skills, using both hands simultaneously to practice pak da, lop da, tan da, bong da, elbows and knees, finger strikes, vertical fist punching, chain punching, etc. all very common to wing chun, but applied differently in modified form from different byjong stance and more powerful movements

also am learn closing distance, sinking bridge, using many range of attack in combination like kicking, striking, trapping, grappling and even some ground-fighting, but very street oriented with many foul tactics or dirty boxing, many intercepting and stop kicks or stop hits, and lots of movements common to boxing like the jab, cross, hook, uppercut, only modified again with byjong stance using fencing principles and longest weapon to nearest target, waist pivot for power, and all-out sparring with mouthpieces, mma fingerless gloves, groin protectors, headgear, elbowpads, kneepads, wrestling shoes, etc. on judo mats for grappling and takedowns

where i learn jkd is no weapons training at all, except for unarmed self-defense against armed opponents with knives, sticks, bats and clubs, so there is no learning how to use weapons in my jkd, but there are seperate classes later in day after jkd class for training in kali and arnis eskrima using sticks, knives, canes, swords, nunchaku, long staffs and other weapons, but that is in kali class not part of the jkd training

my jkd training is primarily stand-up fighting, but with some ability to adapt to ground fighting if is needed, lots of bagwork, focus mit drills, training with partners, completely formless without kuens/katas, many punches and kicks from modified muaythai and savate, and a lot of very basic training just in cardio and endurance in general like modified boxing, lots of modified wing chun training in trapping with sparring but no sticky-hands, modified jujutsu drills, things like that very similar to the way bruce lee and his original students train back in the 1960's

 

of course am also do personal training in jkd so means that everyone is different, my stance is adjust to fit me personally, am taller and long reach thin build so have more focus on stand-up fighting with foul tactics, dirty boxing and stand-up grappling with joint-lock takedowns and low kicks since am not flexible with my legs, but each jkd guy is train differently and is adjust to individual, so some guys who train in jkd with me spend more focus on ground fighting, some are better at kicking, heavier guys weigh 300+ pounds with more focus on power punching and things like that, so jkd is personal and molded to each individual or at least how i am learn in jkd

no gi or traditional kung-fu uniforms in my jkd class i am wear black kung-fu pants or judo pants with wrestling shoes and plain ordinary short sleeved t-shirt with jkd logo and motto, shows yin-yang symbol with arrows around it in gold and crimson on black shirt or just plain black and white on white shirt, motto "using no way as way having no limitation as limitation" bring a gym bag with gear include jump rope, focus glove, shin guards, elbow and knee pads, mma fingerless gloves, helmet, mouth peice and groin protector, sometimes carry training knife or nunchucks but nunchucks are not part of my jkd training

am fairly confident that what i am learning is true jkd, sometimes bring a notebook or tape recorder during class, keep the schedule and workout sheet in a folder, always trying to remember things and take notes for personal reflection and training away from the jkd academy at home or whenever feel like working out

 

yes agree sometimes too much theory, too much quoting of bruce lee, too much bragging and boasting, too much on politics and lineages and technicalities..... not enough sparring and training or learning in general..... also in my jkd class am never blending anything, everything is natural and one motion, one workout, not like mma classes where you will spend an hour doing traditional karate, then an hour doing judo, then another hour doing taekwondo, everything in jkd is one class, one session, one hour doing everything all at once without forms or traditions, the only blending we do is going from one movement into another without stopping, very good way to train in my opinion since nothing is forgotten from one class to another, everything is included in the moment

also though is difference between skill and understanding, like me i have in opinion good knowledge and understanding of jkd, but skill-wise i admit i need to improve, too much reading and learning and knowing is not good for jkd, sijo himself say "willing is not enough we must do knowing is not enough we must apply" so i come across generally 3 types of jkd guys, one who is not good skill-wise but is very knowledgable with deep understanding, one who is moderate and has some understanding with a little bit of skill to go with, and then the third kind is someone who isn't very knowledgable but who has incredible jkd skill in movement and physical demonstration..... i am the moderate or mediocre type

old saying goes, "the more you know the less you know" and if going hand-in-hand with holy bible it says "in professing themselves to be wise they become fools" so i admit i am somewhat more knowledgable than skillful, but also is finding the cause of your ignorance the important step to moving forward and evolving in jkd..... the hardest for me is how to seperate jkd from other styles i train in, especially trying not to view jkd from a wing chun perspective since i am really wing chun guy at heart with foundation in wing chun