Will Tracy's web site on Kenpo

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Oct 30, 2006.

  1. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Hi all,
    I just got notification by e-mail and read it on the San Jose Kenpo board that the Web site that Will Tracy has is now up and running with most of what he remembers about Kenpo, from his viewpoint. I believe it is very good to be able to view this.


    I hope we can have some good discussions and not have it become a problem.
    Lets not get into dragging up all the things that have nothing to do with this subject. OK

    Regards, Gary
  2. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    You mean the stuff about him being arrested by the police for prostituting his wife under the guise of her being the re-incarnated goddess? Or something else? Here's the links:



    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Exactly. :eek:

    It is a good read, he is a very knowledgeable person, about the early days.
    If you read about the history of many countries, it is similar to the life and times of Kenpo. :D

  4. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Wow I have no idea about any of this, but this is the first good laugh I've had in a while on here. Nice. I'll get around to reading that first article posted when I care (no sarcasm intended btw...I just started reading it now...and it's late, and when I'm tired I tend not to care about rehashed Ke?po history. But tomorrow I'm sure I'll be awake and my care will return so I may dredge myself back into the swirling enigma that is Ke?po lineage.)
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The site has some interesting context to go along with the teaching of the techniques. In one part it is described that the techniques are never broken down but are taught as a whole.

    That is the way I learned many of the Tracy's techniques but when I teach them, I break them down into short forms and variations. The short forms demonstrating the basic principles from which the rest of the technique works off of. I guess I'm not teaching them the way that it was intended they be taught.

    We teach many techniques that are similar to the Tracy's techniques as part of the "Kenpo" aspect of Kajukenbo just as we work specific drills for the boxing, jiu-jitsu, and karate aspects, etc. independently of the Kajukenbo core techniques.
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I believe the core of the tech's in Kenpo are what Will mentions they came from the Japanese who trained in them for a very long time.
    I believe Kajukenbo is a very good art I probably do more of it then I do what is to be known for in "Kenpo". It has come out more on what the core of Kajukenbo was and is similar to Karazenpo (FMA)...

    I believe Kajukenbo changed very quick in the old days when Mitose went in and confronted the leaders of the art and it changed. LOL But of course it is not mentioned much.
    Being in the position I am from some early association with John Leoning and that time frame and knowledge, is good and bad. It has caused me many arguing threads and banning LOL...

    Since Mitose had very little kata as the way of his teaching and the way of the techs of Chow, I have/had after a few years and not very many have to say I gave up on kata. This is not to say I do not do a form of sort but the form is a lack of form, if I may use that term.

    The value in what Will is now being able to put forth and has done so because he feels the state of Kenpo is in disarray, he is throwing his thoughts again back into the mainroad rather then a tributary as has been viewed by many for quite a while.

    I am glad even with some of the problems that will come up regarding ones character, it is good to be able to read what he is saying and has said for a very long time.

    I have had this knowledge to some degree for years and when I first came onto the scene of the web was to hard on others for them to take for they were wrong in the way I felt.
    So with some time and patience I am now seeing more and more of what I believed to be the truth and the way, it has arrived of late in more then one thread, I will mention. LOL

    I am really looking forward to what Thomas Mitose will say in a new edition of his book (dads) or maybe his (thomas) website.

    I believe it is a good thing what is happening and about time. Last but not least the trump card has been played, now other's will need time to read and recuperate.
    We will see how the next hand is going to go.

    Regards, Gary
  7. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Sounds like you're off your meds again Gary.
  8. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    One thing good about the internet. No matter how far fetched your beliefs may be, if you search long enough you'll find something on the net to support you.
    A common thing many so-called researchers do is sprinkle just enough truths in their statements to make the rest of the story seem accurate.
    Good research should consist of examining all sources, with the most weight being given to first hand accounts that are supported by documents, events, or other eye witnesses.
    Many people like to push the credibility and character of the story teller to the side, as long as his/her story supports their personel beliefs or agenda.
    It's pretty sad that the common sense and good judgement that most people use in their everyday lives, is not also used in their martial arts lives. If someone was approached by a salesman with a investment offer, the smart person would check into the salesman's credibility, and his reputation for truthfullness before believing his claims and investing their money. Yet, when martial arts history is put forward by people with known histories of untruthfulness, fraudulent schemes, and even criminal records, it's unquestioned.
    Some of Will Tracy's historical accounts appear to be accurate, according to some people involved in these events. Some claims are truly incorrect, although this may not be intentional. And some claims appear to be totally fabricated.
    One claim that appears to be fabricated is the claim that James Mitose's sister, Clara Mitose (aka Fusae Oshita) was also a kenpo grandmaster teaching in Hawaii in the 50's-60's. People like Bruce Juchnik and myself have interviewed many students of James Mitose and William Chow. Mr. Juchnik even has video tapes of some of his interviews availiable for sale. First generation Mitose students like Thomas Young, Antoine Krutchy, Paul Yamaguichi have been interviewed. First generation students of William Chow, like Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Fred Lara, Bill Chun Sr., have been interviewed. Thomas Mitose, Wally Jay, Sig Kufferath, and others who knew Mitose have been interviewed many times. Not one of these people support the story of Mitose's sister being a kenpo instructor, let alone a kenpo grandmaster.
    The one thing the internet has done is given people who never had the credibility to be taken seriously by magazine editors and book publishers, the ability to put forward all the false claims, far fetched notions, and revisionist history they choose.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  9. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Dan You mention,
    I can only figure you are saying it does not have much FMA. You certainly can't be talking about the meeting since Sijo mentions it in his interview with JB. On JB's website.


    To clarify my thoughts on FMA and the arts from Hawaii (Kaju and Kara)

    John, I am a pretty knowledgable individual on what you are mentioning about the sisters.
    When I asked Bruce he goes, HUH...So it is either something that was not known by many or the other thing you are mentioning. We will have to figure that out if we can, now that it is in the cold light of day.
    I have known about it for quite some time. In fact you and I discussed it just prior to my banning at MT.

    Are you catching the information as how it was given to them, sisters?

    Will does not mention the connection of Kosho and Komatsu, I wish he would have said something about it. I will give you some more information regarding that, I have to hit some old pages I am not up to snuff without a reread.

    Ideograms are the answer. Actually Kanji of Japan and the writings of the Chinese are the answer. It does get deep LOL... But I do have it and will get to it, now that it has been broached, as I have mentioned.

    See one of the things I am going to have to look at is the agenda???
    Who has it and how much. Me/I, as Joe Shuras so often mentioned, have no dog in the fight, except the TRUTH. if it is able to be found is getting more information the answer? I think so.

    Did you know that the Tracy's were raised by Chinese? While growing up?
    Talk about interviewing, was GM Bill Ryusaki interviewed?

    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  10. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    No Gary, I'm talking about how Kajukenbo supposedly changed as a result of a visit from Mitose. Where are you getting that from?
  11. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I don't know about other people interviewing Mutsuto (Bill) other then myself and the late Jane Hallander.
    I've talked to him several times over the last 20 years, last time being in July. Even though he lives in Burbank (Ca.) he still travels quite a bit for his movie work (stuntman), so it's hard to always be able to get a hold of him. But if I email him, I usually get a answer within a couple of days. He's only lived in two places in the last 40 years, Sherman Oaks and Burbank. Is there something in particular you wanted to ask him?
  12. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz New Member

    dan, are you this disrespectful in person?
    somehow i doubt it.
  13. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    All depends on who I'm talking to and what they're saying. If someone's acting like an ass, then yep.
  14. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    No actually Sonny talked to him, and I was wondering if you have lately?

    Mike Rash, had mentioned it the other day and I was curious. Since you have mentioned him as one you keep in contact with.

  15. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Well I'm sure if it was anything important he would have given me a call or shot me a email.
  16. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    With Will's mentioning Belts and names

    It look's like to me that most of what Will is saying is going to be not liked, for what he mentions is most of the seniors of other organizations have been selling bad goods for years and he is trying to set it straight.

    For examle in an interview with you John, this does not look that palatable now or ever, but a man did make Black belt in 9 months under EP so maybe it is ok in some circles. Problem is if you are going to go there your own validity is suspect. I have known good Black belts been doing it for decades, years and years and years. They are good at Kata but could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Does that mean they are not a Black Belt??? No.

    EMPERADO: I was his first black belt, his Chief Instructor and a 5th Degree Black Belt under him. We were very close for many years

    So I am going to have to say what I have always been talking about and been getting banned for:
    To many stories not enough time nor care in the long run, Hypocrisy is alive and well. When you don't care about rank, one way it is going to come back and haunt you, but if you are like CG and others it is much worse in my opinion.

    Sort of like High school and attendance, must be going to get your diploma and now they have to pass a test to get out. Shame on the school system...

    I actually believe you missed the point about who the person was in Hawaii who was a GM, and "her son" going to Japan at a young age. To study with his Grand father.

    I was at a seminar and the person giving it felt that there was not much you can get from books, said something to the effect that he read the first few pages and some out of the middle and at the end and could tell you pretty much what was in the book. Ludicrous to say the least.

    I knew many in the service in the late 50's and early 60's that were basicly illiterate but they could still be a good, "Ground Pounder" and shoot a rifle very well. I certainly would not want to be in their sights they were very good shots. But they could not read real well.
    Being tested by someone like that would not be hard, all you would have to do is out shoot him, which I did.

    Most of what I see in martial arts today is pretty good in comparison to days gone by if you are looking at time in grade to be an indicator of rank.

    Many bad mouth someone like CG, but he has a lot more years in than others who said they were of that caliber. Just an observation.

    It may have gone over your head about the Mom and son being in Hawaii, If his Mom was a GM and she had Girls, is it that hard to understand that they would also be into the Martial Arts and have a Sensei rank?

    Then there are some like myself who would rather say they were a White belt and be telling the truth, and still 40 years later claim that rank from someone they respected, rather then metioning any other rank except there experience in the last 40 years. LOL

    I would think you might understand better if you were watching me in person or trying to pick a fight on the street or at a seminar, if you really wanted to go there or not.

    I have been telling you who I am since I started this silly stuff, but you are still not convinced.
    How many citations for bravery and good service do I have to show? Or how many time's do I have to mention I worked 114 in LA and you being a retired LEO, not to know what it takes to get there?

    Since the comment about the Mother and Daughter going over your head happened, I am really not surprised by your other, "no brainers"?
    So with that I would really rather talk about the topic than me.
    But hey I know myself and where I have been better then others so if that is the topic, as I saw in another post by your "sidekick" go for it.

  17. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, I knew it wouldn't take you long to make my point for me regarding your posts. I'm glad you feel that you can claim the rank of white belt. I just wish you'd tell us where it was that you earned this presitgious rank.
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    First lets view Emperados rank and see what we come up with. Then we can go on to the other seniors and thier stuff that is blown out of proportion the older they get and the less they truly remember...

    I just went and googled his name and the Kajusite.

    What came up on the google information is John Bishop telling everyone they will be banned or deleted if they mention anything about the history of Sijo that is derogatory LOL so what else can be posted? To many wrongs don't make a right.. He does have a great following that is what happens when you are culture oriented.

    Hawaii is a very culture oriented location, so are the Filipines. So if that is the way it is pretty sad in a free society to not be able to learn truth on a site that is pretty much dedicated to the person. Anyone in the public eye is very much under the magnifing glass.

    Live with it, for it is their history good or bad. For everyone who thinks Musashi is great there are hundreds who don't. So to put it in perspective like MM mentions to know "one is to know 10,000"... for good or bad.

  19. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Okay, I am bit a lost on what you are trying to say about Sijo Emperado. He is a black belt of William Chow, and he helped found Kajukenbo. Where is the dispute?
  20. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Well lets try to get back to the topic, and present some reasonable arguments to support our views.
    After reading your whole post above, the two quoted statements sort of jump out at the reader.
    So you are now claiming that James Mitose's mother was a "kenpo grandmaster"? What would be the source to support this theory/belief?

    The Tracy camp has put forward the theory that James Mitose was taught in Japan by his maternal grandfather, Sukohei Yoshida (sp), and learned the Yoshida family martial arts.
    The Juchnik camp claims that this grandfather was dead by the time Mitose went to Japan.
    I haven't seen any documentation from the Juchnik camp, but I have seen the documents the Tracy camp uses to try to back up their claim.
    The Tracy camp uses government documents, mostly immigration interviews and such to support their claim.
    On their face they look good. But if you really read what they say, at least two of the documents say that Mitose went to live with his grandmother, or mother's mother. They also name the village that they lived in. Not a temple, a village.
    Even though Japan was/is a highly patriarchal society, the grandfather is not mentioned at all in any of these documents. Going to live with the grandmother is mentioned, not grandfather, or even grandparents.
    As to the "Yoshida" family arts, there is no independant records/writings that support the claim of the family teaching a kenpo art. To the contrary, their are very good records of the family teaching the "sumo" arts and a style (Yanagi Ryu) of "aiki-jitsu".

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