Why the lack of competition?

for a small part of an art they seem to be an awful lot of clips of said grabs and extended punching defences, and not many if any of those core mechanics being used in sparring, by which i am meaning non rehearsed attacks that you are likely to see in this day and age

For example there doesnt seem to be many clips of evasion and manipulating limbs against someone trained to throw a proper combination of punches and not leaving their limb out there from any aikido club that we can see, or of someone attacking the balance of someone clinching them and kneeing an aikido person or trying to throw them on there head
not many if any clips of someone making the art work outside of there dojo against other arts , although ill admit that clip Giovanni posted was the best i have seen to date, but thats one clips amongst hundreds if not thousands of compliant drill clips we see

 

On the one hand you're talking about non-rehearsed attacks and then you're talking about throwing combinations of punches? How does one learn to put combinations together? Is it through random sparring?

 

Doesn't disappoint me in the least.

Intervening in violence in a way that minimizes harm to all involved impresses me. It shows a high level of sensitivity and control.

Being aware and diffusing situations before they become violent is the very pinnacle of real-world practice, in my opinion.

 

I've never done a public demo (I don't count the bits of TV/stage choreography I've done, as they weren't demo'ing the art as it is intended to be used).

However, when demonstrating something to the class, I absolutely want the other person to do their damndest to best me. It doesn't really show the utility of the technique otherwise.

Yes. Absolutely.

Shadowboxing and the like (even kata) has its place in that, but it is only in sparring that you learn when and how to apply combinations for yourself.

 

But that's not "random". You learn your combinations walking through them slowly and gradually build it up. Then you put it to the test. Rinse and repeat.

 

I would argue that learning rote combinations is largely futile.

I agree that you should start sowly and incrementally increase the speed, but I believe the optimum arena to do that in is in sparring.

There are too many variables to second-guess what combinations might be optimum.

I suppose if you are specializing in a sport style where rote combinations and counters are common, it might make sense to train that way.

 

I'm jumping on this a bit late but I gotta say this is a really good point. A lot of people think of all joint manipulations as submissions and then decry them when the majority of them don't work in that way, which is partly because that's how most modern systems teach them.

I use waki gatame all the time to get people halfway to the floor, then finish the job with a takedown and submission, as a further example

 

Seems to work for boxers. So what's your approach? Throw students into sparring with no concept of what they're supposed to do? The one that survives gets to cry out "THIS IS SPARTA!!!" and growl menacingly?

 

As I said, I agree that slow practice is most conducive to learning.

Sparring, for beginners, is a co-operative flow exercise, it is not about "surviving".

The two partners get to work at striking openings as and when they occur. Otherwise you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. If something works, or if it doesn't, and one wants to see why and practice it, then they break and recreate the situation as many times as it takes to sink in.

By the time they begin sparring, they already have a toolset of strikes, but I consider continually practicing the same strings of combinations to be a polluting factor. Adaptability is key.

It is for the exact same reason that I consider continually practicing the same kata to also be detrimental to a fighter's neuromuscular system.

Some people will disagree, and some will have good arguments for disagreeing. That's fine, there's enough room in the world for different approaches

 

Have you been spying on me????

 

Well lets see. Typically in an Aikido club students start off cooperatively taking it in turns to be the attacker and defender. Each is working on an aspect of the art. As they graduate through the grading system the difficulty and levels of resistance are supposed to increase. Finally they are black belts. Who are not experts but still beginners. Everything up to and including black belt is preparing the student to study Aikido. Equipping them with a tool set as you put it.

Doesn't see so different to anything else anybody else has posted so far.

Well the thing is, kata are nothing more than combinations of movements. As Aikido students progress in their ability the kata change. And Aikido kata are almost always in the form of paired practice. Two people working on a technique. Studying how the technique actually works. The exception to that rule are some very basic movements. Which mostly can be reduced to footwork.

I've never stood in an Aikido class punching and kicking thin air, hyper-extending my elbows and knees for no good reason. Clearly I can't speak for every club. But in my experience that just does not happen.

So unless an Aikido student is performing their kata incorrectly in a manner that produces some form of RSI. I don't see how Aikido kata causes neuromuscular damage at all.

 

When did I mention neuromuscular disease or disorders?

How is kata not striking to thin air? Or do you smack hell out of each other in kata?

Hyperextension is avoided with good technique, whether to thin air or not.

 

Total reliance on kata training is not advisable though surely even if there are many forms of kata. There would need to be a degree of open format sparring included. Without unpredictability and surprise how do you learn how to adapt your knowledge outside of the training format you learned it in?

 

Then how else are kata causing neuromuscular damage? Stop abusing big words and you won't create confusion.

 

Indeed. Which is why sparring, randori, free practice, pressure testing or whatever other term people care to use is important.

 

How do you do that in aikido? It's not something I have seen in my limited aikido experience so I'm curious about how it's done. When I did jujitsu e would often do randori but it was either basicly kick boxing (or jitsuka attempting it anyway) or judo. There were a lot of aikido style techniques in the syllabus (eg wrist controlled locks, throws and submissions/breaks) but these were never allowed in sparring so I am curious how it might work without injuries.

*i am aware of how controlled application and good ukemi can reduce the risk of injury but it would still seem dangerous.

 

When it's two person kata and yes you can very much smack the hell out of each other.

 

At the club I attended you would work with between 4 and 8 people. Who would surround you and attack you at random with an attack of their choosing. Often they'd each have a number that someone would call out.

So you wouldn't know what attack was coming or who was attacking from which direction.