Why the lack of competition?

Coming from a karate background the way I see it, most trainings in aikido deal with the last attack.

What I mean is that what I see is basically the end of a combo where the opponent over reaches. Not saying it is the best way or most effective way to train but, if I got into a fight again, I would only use aikido when it is clear the opponent over reached or placed himself in an easily unbalanceable position where I could use a strike to break his flow and then apply a throw or a lock (and once I know enough to actually think about using aikido).

Now in karate I had to deal with combos and dealt combos. The way we defended was to have a close guard (not unlike.boxing) and try and strike the opponents weapons. One particularly nasty one I liked to use: elbow the inner elbow of the opponent. That usually broke his balance.

As a summary, After the combo looses momentum or creates an opening due to tiredness and/or a mistake, then you can effectively use aikido.

Where I train I don't think emphasis is on combos but from a practical perspective that means we can absorb a technique through repetition a lot better. I intend to do combos once I am a bit more experienced but still, both methods of training are important.

I think many of the problems people see in aikido is just that they don't understand what is being trained.

As a final note, let me tell you from first hand experience that once you over reach you wont believe how fast you become helpless and also that timing wise aikido is a very good discipline.

 

He made his technique work by constantly being on the move and keeping uke moving constantly. Which meant uke never got a chance to settle and find their centre.

It's hard to say exactly what led to the development of Ki Aikido since there was a lot of politics involved at the Aikikai at the time. What is known is that Koichi Tohei taught Ki in separate classes while still at the Aikikai after O Sensei's death.

Do you have first hand training experience with Koichi Tohei? Killer instinct doesn't always take the direct approach. My teacher used to tell me I was in trouble if I couldn't feel him beside me. Some people will wait until you're not looking.

 

I'd love to see a five minute lesson on Aiki. If the ore principle of the art can be taught in 5 minutes. Why does it seem so hard for people to grasp?

 

Sorry not addressing your whole post but I liked your post. The ground and pound in Kajukenbo follows the same principles of "always stun or unbalance on contact" and "always stun or unbalance before lock or takedown".

If the opponent isn't stunned by your punch to the face then you generally need to start over striking to a different open target. Each follow-up strike (usually in sets of three in kajukenbo) is feeding off the reaction of the previous creating a sort of pinball effect. So a good solid punch to the face opens up the groin, which then brings the head back up for a strike to the eyes, which then brings the head back for a strike to the throat. If any of these fail, then the strike that follows is not going to work as well, it is time to move on to a different open target. I often mix in joint attacks and I like strikes to the ribs/liver/solar plexus as part of setting up strikes more than the groin, but my instructor strikes to the groin often in these sets.

You are right on that most of this does not work... firstly, it does not work because the stun might not happen, second is that many will try to roll over towards or away into a turtle or kick their way out.

When we started rolling more from the BJJ training, my instructor started to remember back in the early 1970s when he was first training that if you started to roll away, they would just pick you off the ground and slam you down on your side and continue to ground and pound. Of course he trained full contact, bare knuckle CHA 3 Kenpo Karate (a brother art to Kajukenbo) at the time, so not every school was as violent.

Establishing control of one elbow/arm can help a lot in the ground and pound. I've learned that an arm lock is only good for stunning the arm or immobilizing it so that it can't be used to attack you. A submission from arm lock in ground and pound game is very hard to do unless the opponent is softened up. There are some that can do this, but they are better than I am at arm bars.

When I was in Goju Ryu Karate, I remember Higaonna Sensei would put me in a finger lock on the ground before striking. He was very good at the finger locks.


Oh and the end a fight in 3 you mentioned is maybe meaning three strikes, in Kajukenbo we use seconds. We have a seven second rule (no more than 3 seconds to down the opponent no more than 4 seconds to finish on the ground), if it takes more time, it probably isn't as good or practical as you might think it is.

 

No first hand experience, unfortunately... only stories passed on to me. There are many of his "tricks" that I use to help teach even though it is not Aikido I teach. The making uke form a fist to aid in kotegaeshi and the pushing the hands together (staring with the tips your fingers and ending with the palms together) while turning to over extend uke are just two I really like to pass on.

The lack of killer instinct is more based on statistics. It is very rare. Less than 1% of the population has "true" killer instincts... the rest either do not have it at all (like sheep) or they learn to fake it (like me). Since no stories about Tohei having killer instinct, odds are he didn't. There are plenty of stories on the other hand about Morihei Ueshiba to indicate he did have killer instinct.

I don't discuss how to fake it because it goes into the dehumanizing methods of martial arts that are not politically correct to pass on in public. They can be easily misunderstood and can be used to create brain-washed killing machines, a.k.a. machines or robots (in the extreme case). Not that I'm an expert on all this, but I might know enough to be dangerous :Angel:

It is tough probably because of preconceptions. I mean, who in the world would look at a superman punch and say that is Aikido? errr... besides me.

I will tell you that it is another trick for learning. It is basically a lesson on using the mechanics of a pendulum. You learn how to use the pendulum in your own space, then how this creates a corresponding wave in your training partner. In the long path, your pendulum becomes smaller and faster (much more subtle and hard to see) but in doing so, you can see the effect of a pendulum more so in uke. A basic lesson in iriminage (and I mean very basic, but most can understand the concept of a pendulum).

 

If it gets the point of the lesson across to your students or even yourself then it's a valid training method.

 

Sorry, just got back.

To tell the truth, that sounds like what the ninja guys spout. I can point you to a couple of threads on ninjutsu that re just like that. Just substitute "ninjutsu" to aiki.

At the same time, 'aiki' has become a banner word for lots of things. If I take a crap and it's effortless, no resistance cuz I have diarrhea, that's AIKI, right? You don't feel it spilling out until it's too late. A feeling of a void (or voiding. for that matter)

Sorry, but your examples of aiki are "with effort". Possibly without conflict, but surely "with effort".

To break it down, AI = harmony, KI = ? What the hell is ki anyway? What is being "harmonized" in aiki?

I agree about footwork, but I don't agree BJJ is like aikido. They may both use aiki, but they are defined by the stuff they train in (techniques, tactics, strategy,etc.). Why do I say that? Simple: why train those things if they DON'T WORK in bringing your principle TO LIFE?

Of course, why only look at his training? I look at his work (ie, his fights); can aikido do the same?

Well, you posted:

and now you're saying that second-hand's not as good but still acceptable. What if the second-hand's not that good anyway? Why do I need to buy a car that I see explode on the road most of the time, and you tell me that I'll see its good points when I test drive it? WHY CAN'T IT STAND ON ITS OWN MERITS, EVEN WITHOUT PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT?

PS: personal involvement means a SUBJECTIVE point of view, not an objective one.

Is there someone THAT trustworthy to deliver aikido as a MARTIAL art? Who? PROOF PLEASE. OBJECTIVE ONES.

 

Jeez, nearly the same, word for word, as the ninjutsu apologetics. Please read the thread on the bujinkan iai I linked before...

Why do you violate principles of nature? Answer: for safety purposes.
WHEN will you return to the principles of nature? Well....

And on the other hand, WHY do most videos demonstrate BAD habits, as per your post? Why does, in mother nature, bad habits get PENALIZED? Most often than not gravely (by being eaten). Why does aikido get away with it? Why doesn't aikido get in accord with nature's ways?

Good (MA) systems don't violate principles, they utilize it in all its brutal ways.
Thermodynamics, electronics,etc.; in all of those: BAD HABITS KILL. That's why ingraining good habits is a life saver. WHY CAN'T AIKIDO?

So what you are saying is that aikido only works on Terminators and droids, not humans. ROBOTS, right? Kamikaze attack, banzai, banzai! :hat:

So this "martial art", in order to be "effective", TOTALLY disregards humanity and even animality. And teaches dumb ways of using the sword to attack (not utilizing range for their maximum BENEFIT; what's the purpose of weapons,BTW?).

That's the sad part about MA schools that are usually criticized these days: they don't progress from a stupid attacker to a smart one. If your feedback is from a stupid guy, of course you're gonna get stupid; you will never rise from your current level.

And oh, BTW: aiki is non-resistance, right? aikido is ___ percent atemi, as they say. Atemi is to kuzushi by striking, meaning you apply force to disrupt his structure. In other words, you apply FORCE with with enough RESISTANCE as to not break your own structure while breaking his RESISTANCE of you disrupting the integrity of his structure.

Non-resistance, amirite? :evil:

 

You noticed it too, huh?

One thing I've noticed in what Hannibal and I called "aiki-esque" is that THE FIRST RESPONSE DETERMINED EVERYTHING. Which majority of the aikidoka I saw flunked when "graced with pressure".

If uke wants to throw a combo at you and starts doing so, how do you foil it?

1. By throwing a wrench into the works (e.g. throw a counter)

2. BY NOT BEING THERE.

That's why I said the distinguishing factor of aikido is its footwork. "Aiki-esque" moves makes you "disappear" from the attack. Problem is, most aikidoka ROOT/stand their ground under a REAL, GOOD attack (hell, most of us do; cringing and staying stationary at a location as a flinch response). In more than a half-century of aikido, why don't they have a consistent method of training that?

That's what is sad about aikido: a good idea not being put into practice.

(And if you beg to differ: PLEASE PROVIDE PROOF. One that proves beyond reasonable doubt. Thank you.)

PS: I once mentioned that sumo is the base for aikido. Understand now? :hat:

Yes, I seen them emphasize it WITH WORDS. But I saw most of them crumble to feral style under pressure. Hannibal is right when he said the principles are good, it's the training method that lacks. but I've never seen a training method from aikido that consistently worked.

 

You understand why I said before that your "aiki" has become a catch-all term and you can even call the act of crapping as aiki.

Pray tell: if the superman punch IS aikido, WHY WASN'T IT PUT IN THE SYLLABUS BY UESHIBA? If you say it teaches well the principles of aiki, why wasn't it used as a teaching vehicle? ARE YOU SAYING YOU ARE BETTER THAN UESHIBA IN DETERMINING WHICH IS "AIKI" AND WHICH IS NOT? :bang:

Please tell us again: what is "KI", and what is "harmonization of KI"?

See, even you yourself doesn't distance this nature from the training; WHY CAN'T AIKIDO?

That's normal in wrestling. And probably more brutal in PRIDE: you would eat a knee or a foot first.

It's not just good, it's the SCIENCE of ground and pound. See the more current "game" in MMA of using GnP while in the wrestling riding position (JDS vs Velasquez).

I'm not sure of the origin of that quote, or whether it refers to strikes, seconds or minutes. All I know is that it aims to lessen the time chaos (and luck) will play a part in the encounter.

Opposite of that is the Gracie way: slow the fight down so the chaos can be more easily handled. Provided you survive the initial onslaught, of course. Ask Helio.

 

Eh, pretty much. What do you expect?

It should. You don't move, you get hit. You don't apply good technique, it backfires. And so forth. But people are lazy. Which has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the people approaching said system.

What principles do you think Aikido isn't employing again?

Terrible strawman is just terrible. That's not what he meant and I'm not going to insult you by assuming you didn't know that.

So what was your experience with sword form and attacks with Japanese weapons again? And what is your experience with sword based striking movements in Aikido?

To a degree, yes.

Sort of. Atemi isn't just there as a form of kuzushi as much as it is to break your opponents' concentration so as to enable good kuzushi via movement and technique.

 

It can. Brutality just isn't the done thing these days. Some folks won't even consider training with you.

 

Again: it SHOULD. But it DOESN'T. And if aikido is a "TRADITIONAL" MA and has its own culture, then it promotes a culture of laziness. It's a SYSTEMIC problem, not individual. If a lazy person trains in an art that DEMANDS hard work, would he stay for long if he keeps being lazy?

The principle of RANDOMNESS of human reactions. The Principle of Survival Priorities of living beings.

No, I understand it fully well. He posted it himself:

It's the first level, good. WHEN'S THE NEXT LEVEL?

It's another case of it SHOULD. But it DOESN'T. If wishes were pigs, I could have a lechon everyday.

WHY IS AIKIDO STUCK AT STAGE 1?

Another quote:

If it was an INDIVIDUAL problem then this should be sporadic. But it's not; it's pandemic. And isn't pandemic a close synonym for SYSTEMIC?

Some goofing around with an ex-member of Sugino's dojo (probably a Shinkendo member by now), some good folks from the local kendo club a few years back, more goofing around as a TKD-jin against an aikidoka who was told off by the pekiti-tirsia instructor on why wasn't he using the LENGTH of the shinai to keep ME away from him. Showed me some disarms in the range I was OBTAINING.

Now back to Rebel Wado's point:

Fact: a sword hand doesn't have as much damage potential as a real sword would.

Fact: closing distance enough for a sword hand ALSO puts you in range for an unarmed counterattack.

Fact: the arc of a cut takes longer to complete and s much harder to retract than a thrust. The longer the moment arm, the harder it gets.

Conclusion: a sword offers MORE advantages than a sword hand.

Question: Why does aikido stick to ways of attacking WITHOUT BENEFITS?

Hypothesis 1: The attackers are stupid enough to not WANT the benefits.
Hypothesis 2: The tradition states that they must ADHERE to tradition (i.e. keep stupid)

Observed process:

Possible outcome: Stagnancy

Did you posted that when Rebel Wado posted his definition of atemi? I must have missed it.

 

Dude, chill on the caps. im reading shouts in my head!

 

AHEM! :yeleyes: SAYS WHO? YOU?

No wonder. People nowadays can't hunt nor butcher their own meat. Gutting a pig? BRUTAL. Bleeding a chicken? Cruel. Bashing a squirming catfish and scraping out its gills? Messy and real hard to do.

That's what food is. That's what nature is. That's what life is.

If you have been shielded from life, then you have been shielded from death. Funny, cuz death has always been the product of war. And war is the root of MARTIAL.

If you've been shielded from life, then you've been shielded from martial. And you teach martial arts, yes?

Life is brutal, for nature is brutal. It's our artificial construct of CIVILIZATION that we are shielded from that fact. But it doesn't change what goes on outside our bubble: the REAL WORLD. And some people know HOW to function in that world, some of them thrives on it.

 

Sorry, I'm lazing around in the bold with the italia -- I mean, I'm lazy on the bold and the italics nowadays. :evil: Trying my hand on SEO too...

 

First off dude, the caps. Seriously. Not everyone enjoys being excessively capped all the time .

If you want to talk about "tradition" as in "what O'Sensei tried to pass down", then you only have to look at the massive variety of quotes attributed to him to realise that he was all for hard training as he was very much a believer that hard training polishes the soul. So no, I don't think Aikido promotes laziness, I believe people do that themselves.

Which is what good atemi is for IMO.

I read that with it being more of an emphasis on mindset - that like a "robot", you have just one goal you must accomplish. Not that he's saying that you "move" like a robot and ignore natural attitudes, instincts and intentions, which is the impression I got from your comment:

Apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant.

So no serious experience then?

To be fair, this is one of those throwbacks to how O'Sensei developed his art, with his experiences and his training in Japanese sword and spear form which he then used in his training. However, I'm not sure many Aikidoka go beyond a cursory introduction in how to use bokken correctly (myself included). Which is a problem.

As does pretty much any other form of attack. So it's a problem for Aikidoka but not for anyone else?

No arguments from me. Are you saying Aikidoka don't use thrusting attacks?

How much do you know about O'Sensei's MA background?

To be fair though, it's mostly to do with tradition. I stand by the attitude that it's less what you train but how you train it though, which is something that affects everyone in every art.

No, I didn't. I was just sitting back and reading the thread when that was posted. My definition of atemi is only my opinion on what atemi should be though and I imagine others might have their own slightly different view. I suppose its' also fair to mention I tend to throw in a few more than my other training partners which I guess is an influence from my kickboxing training.

 

Yes. That's my experience. The moment there's a hint of brutality involved the number of people willing to train with you drops off exponentially. As an individual it might not be a problem for you. But the wider world it seems has an issue with brutality in martial arts and we've witnessed that reaction on this forum.

As for your rant on hunting. Which is a bit off topic. I have no issue with hunting so long as you eat what you kill and you only kill that which you can eat. Otherwise it is cruel.

Caps are the Internet's equivalent of shouting. When you start shouting and being a loud mouth. People stop paying attention. Something to consider.

As for your actual point. I'm a bit lost as to what BUBBLE I'm stuck in? I've stated many times on this forum and in these recent threads which you have participated in that most of the Aikido out there is crap. I've stated several times if you're getting involved in Aikido you have to find a decent club. Especially if it's Ki Aikido.

Fact of the matter is, good clubs do still exist. Some people involved in Aikido and Ki Aikido are still willing to train hard and enjoy it. So would it then be fair to trash the whole art as a complete waste of time? I don't think it would be.