Hey Dave Humm... did you ever find an answer to this? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1070.html Why no tsuba? Anyone else care to answer... this be an open forum.
Ya, I've had that same question for a couple years. I use a bokken with a tsuba, and at least once in every class I'm glad for that tsuba. You'd think other people would want the protection too.
Thread drift question, do you guys ever do locks or pressure point strikes using the tsuba? The best bruise I ever had in training was from a tsuba to the forehead, The student I was training with did a disarm on me which ended up with me on the floor with the end of the boken locked into my groin, I went ouch (fluently and with feeling) and she let go, the tsuba went straight into the centre of my forhead and wahat a cracking bruise it left. Luckily we were in a hotel and I was able to raid their ice machine to get the lump down.
The reason I've heard in the past is to develop ukeme; i.e. body positioning so that the swords do not "clash". This then ensures (in theory) that the body when receiving is not still in front of the attack so that in order to attack again the attcker needs to move his body rather than just his hands.
Well.. that was a blast from the past.. 2001 !! I still stand by what I said before although having had the opportunity of training with Philip Smith Sensei, Peter Bradey Sensei (both experienced Iai and Aikido Yudansha) I can say that I'm pretty glad I use tsuba This is of course speculation but, I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of people (Iwama ryu students being the exception) who use a bokken without tsuba have little or no experience in iaido or paired aikiken application. Ultimately the bokken (as a representation of the sword) is used in aikido as a tool to develop aiki taiso and not, as a direct substitute for the sword thus; applied as sword technique. Regards
Both wooden bokken and tanto are often seen, IMHO, used without a tsuba in Aikido, even though students buy the complete set. IMHO this leads to sloppy technique, as we need to have a very clear delineation betwen handle and blade. The steel tanto used in the Aikido I have practised also has no tsuba - but anyone grabbing the blade in error probably has never been taught with the safer wooden version - with a tsuba. Move up to 'sword taking' (see Dave's thread) and it becomes vital that a bokken with a tsuba is used to accurately represent the katana.
Using the bokken as bokken or a katana. Tha main reason behind using a tsuba and is simply down to wether your practicing aikiken or a koryu art or based on it. iai, kenjustsu etc. Aikiken is not based on cutting its based on striking. In iwama we use the bokken as a bokken with the same attitude as a sword.Pat cassidy put it well once saying that "the samurai also used the bokken for fighthing outside the battle field. so they had to be able to strike." ie. when they maybe fell out with people but did not want to kill each other. Maybe friends. In iwama we use this principle to make the wrists and arms and the hips(which is also part of tanrenuchi training-striking something). Its still a sword based art, using all the angles and principles but osensei adjusted certain ways to suit aikido. the other side of the coin is using the bokken as if it where a katana, I believe this is how dave practices with his iai. Which makes it very important to use a tsuba. Then there are the so called -lost styles-. where they appear to practicing a made up mixture of aikiken and iai or kenjustsu, where it they practice cutting without a tsuba. Im not saying this is th norm, but alot of shihan have developed there own buki systems based on there very little teaching from Osensei and saito in Iwama(the only place Aikiken and jo where taught) and there training in kendo, iai, kenjustsu etc. Im not saying thats wrong, i just fail to see the connection.
Dont get me wrong im not saying all systems called aikiken that are not from Iwama are wrong, but some are very lost or appear to be.
The sword system used in Iwama came from Kashima Shinto-ryu's Omote No Tachi kenjutsu syllabus. In the Omote No Tachi, practicioners use straight bokuto with no tsuba and train in twelve different tactics related to usage with the tachi. The first five kumitachi were directly lifted from the kata of Kashima Shinto-ryu (Not to be confused with Kashima Shin-ryu) and stripped of the characteristic deep stances used in the koryu kata. Ueshiba Morihei Sensei's signature and blood seal appears on Kashima Shinto-ryu's Eimeiroku as well as on the eimeiroku for the family line of Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho. (Ueshiba S. was a close family friend of the Kuki family and both were affiliated in Shinto circles too.) The picture below shows Ueshiba Morihei with Kuki Takaharu, then soke of the ryuha. Tsuba on Bokuto is a relatively new innovation from the early Meiji era to stop kendoka from bashing their thumbs during kakari-geiko. Granted, some koryu kenjutsu ryuha like, Ono-ha Itto-ryu, Kogen itto-ryu, and Yagyu Shingan-ryu use them, but the are different from the norm. Note Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Niten Ichi-ryu No tsuba used. There are other ryuha, but I don't wish to waste too much bandwidth.
Steve, Once again thanks for the information, always very.. informative May I ask, what differences exist between Kashima Shin-ryu and Kashima Shinto-ryu? I'm presuming they both have very similar origins. Regards
Hey thanks for that, ye it would make alot of sense, also kashima aint very far from iwama less than 30 min by train. dont know about the FIRST five, as there are only five. plus there is alot of disagreament on the final 4 kumitachi's origins. I know the first is meant to be very close to the kashima schools. thanks anyway really good to know
As explained to me once, we train without a tsuba, because this mostly means you rely on body movement for your defense. In other words no cheating and using your tsuba to defend with. Also, you will be very mindfull of never letting the blade of your opponent slide down towards your hands, thus preventing him from taking your center. Purely from what I heard in kashima shin ryu training.
You are right with that. No idea why we get taught with a boken. Well that is the explanation given to me, thought I'd share.
Within the style of Aikido I practice, we use a tsuba on our boken. Over the years I have been thankfull of this as my tsuba has saved me from injury. The Tachi tai Tachi of the Koryu No Kata was formutated by Shihan Ohba 9th Dan who had a background in Kendo and Iai-do and many other Japanese weapons styles. Much of the Tachi tai Tachi is based on the Kendo no kata. Kenji Tomiki was one of Ueshiba's first students first being taught around 1925 the style of Aiki being taught then was more in line with Daito ryu. Ohba a life long friend of Tomiki studied with Ueshiba in the Aikibudo period. I would assume that Ueshiba's weapons practice changed as Aikibudo become less martial with time becoming Aikido that's why some styles of Aikido use tsuba and some don't. It's down to what period of development of Aikido that each Shihan studied under Ueshiba. As most styles of Aikido only touch on the practice of weapons, and this practice make up of a small part of the curriculum ,the further away from the source the more muddier the waters become untill we get to the make it up as you go along gang. I am of the view that if you are going to swing a boken, jo or yari about you should try and practice with someone who has a good grounding in weapons. A backgroud in Iai-do, Kendo or Jodo would be ideal. IMHO I believe that if you want to become good at Aikido or anything else for that matter you must study under the best instructor you can find, if this is not possible affiliate to an association that has regular access to a senior Aikidoka with a traceable back ground.
Aikido is based on sword priciples more so than sword techniques the absense of the tsuba makes the aikidoka feel more vulnerable in that area therefore the emphasis is placed on proper body alignment one of the main reasons for sword practice. As to your statement that we should study kendo to understand the swordwork in aikido I could not agree more. I have had invaluable lessons from a close friend who is 6th dan kendo more on timing distancing and control over the centreline which has had a great effect on my aikido empty hand training as well as the aiki ken.Good post thank you Koyo makotokai.co.uk
<namedrop> My cousin Jeff Humm is a Rokudan Kendo in the BKA </namedrop> And I agree; the study of a sword discipline greatly reinforces taiso, not to mention the fact that it makes us aware that swinging a bokuto is entirely different to actually cutting with a nihonto. Equally; that defeating someone swinging a bokuto without an understanding of the underlying principles of cutting with the monouchi is very easy in comparison to attempting that against a skilled swordsman. (lol) Muto, now there's an interesting debate
