Why is Taekwondo looked down on?

Well, its a plan.. and one I like.. though I dont feel it sums up what we are trying to do! "Deprogressive" perhaps!

I get that. But i feel we are travelling in the opposite direction to that and trying to get back to its roots.

LOL.. maybe.. I do actually like it as I said, but dont feel its decriptive of what we do! Ollies savate knowledge is wicked btw.

Stuart

 

So just what exactly is your experience with Muay Thai? According to your profile you've never trained in it. Having not actually trained in it how would be qualified to know it's effectiveness as a self defense system?

Start another thread rather than drag this one off topic... as I'm genuinely curious to find out how you arrived at this opinion. I'm sure others are as well.

While your at it... maybe you care to give us more details on the following post from you:

So on top of your MT experience you have time to test blackbelts at other dojos (Kyokoshin black belts no less) and manage to manhadle BJJ bluebelts.
Interesting... I'm sure there are plenty who want to know more about your methods.

 

I was on another MA discussion board yesterday where the direction of TKD and it's future is often discussed. Several posters there see a split coming between TKD, the combative art and TKD, the sport. I can easily see this happening in the near future and arguably it is already in progress. In fact, back in the late '70's and early '80's, my instructors usually called the combative system/art Tae Kwon Do and called competition sparring "sport tae kwon".

I've always seen the art of TKD as a good base system that was a good springboard with the cross training I've done over the decades to help me evolve into a Mixed (up) Martial Artist today . And even though I did well at both the national and international level in "sport tae kwon", I always viewed it as a kind of watered down version of kickboxing with way too many limitations (targets and techniques) in it's rules.

I will say though that when I was a teenager and the options were either point sparring or olympic TKD, I greatly preferred olympic style. At least it was continuous and full contact (I also started amatuer boxing at 16-17). I do admit that when I was 18 and could kickbox, I did switch over to that for my competitive fighting (BTW, if my recovery from my surgeries goes well, I am going into submission grappling in the forty and over division).

I don't know if there is any taboo about mentioning other boards on MAP, so I will refrain from it until a mod confirms that it is OK. However, Stuart's book is often mentioned in high esteem by the mod of the TKD forum there and he is also a big fan of the push for a resurgence of the combative art of TKD.

 

"Deprogressive" perhaps!

The word you're looking for is "regressive".

Sorry, disagree.. it represents you training with the TAGB.. not a cross-section of UK TKD, as the TAGB do thinsg there way, the same as the UKTA do thinsg there way.


Well partly. Statistically there are more people in the TAGB than in other orgs (at least at the time I did TKD) and therefore statistically the average practitioner (if you average out TKD in this country) will have a hefty dose of TAGB in them.
Statistically speaking the average person in this country is white, has 2.4 kids and half a labrador. Sure there are childless black people that hate dogs but they don't represent an "average".
For the other orgs to dilute the TKD average away form the TAGB norm they would have to be MARKEDLY different to the usual TAGB fare.

Now sure...I've not trained with every TKD org. in Britain.
It could be that the non-TAGB TKD organisations are entirely peopled by pre-emptive striking, clinch fighting, kneeing, elbowing, throwing, choking, self defending, groundfighting super-fighters.

But I seriously doubt it.

 

thats the one (thanks).. "Regressive TKD" doesnt really have the same impact though!

I agree. But if we forget the size of a single organisation and look at them collectively, there are really about 3 distinct variations on the theme.. TAGB is one, the ITF & ITF based groups (UKTA, UKTF, BUTF etc.) make up a large part and AIMAA (IMO) make the last 3rd.. this includes clubs both winthin those orgs and break aways that teach similar to what they learnt within that org. TAGB is for sure probibly the largest single org, but the ITF based groups probibly out number them collectively.

As I said to your first post in tihis thread.. when it comes to majority - TAGB, ITF & others.. I dont disagre with you.. I simply feel this is the orgs fault and not a TKD inherent issue.. you only have to look at gen Chois books to see there is more to TKD than most orgs teach or focus on.

Stuart

 

No need for a new thread.
First off Ive got friends who train MT, Ive seen them freeze when grabbed and thrown.One of them got in a fight in town and freacked out,could,nt handle the way he was attacked .When you stick out your leg and arm all the time sooner or later someones going to get a hold of it.Also the power of MT attacks depends on your weight so alittle person using it against a bigger one will have alot of trouble getting anywhere.
Second I trained in a Dojo that teaches BJJ, I had many rolls with different degrees in the art and yes I did have some luck.
What happened with the blue belt just happened,I saw an opening and went for it, the result might not have been perfect but I stopped the armbar.
And finally the TKD Dojang Im with has blackbelts in WTF ITF and Kyokishin.I spar with them .In fact the ITF guy is the NZ junior champ who,s going to Tailand in April to fight. He wants to spar with me to get ready for it as he feels Im more like the people he,ll be up against.{shrug}
Hope that helps slip.

 

I think it has to do alot twith sport TKD (wtf olympic sparring). They see these really fast kicks and say "well they could get punched so easily. TKD sucks Muay tai owns!".

However, they dont take into account the difference between sport TKD and actual TKD training, which teaches kicks, punches, other strikes, and although it isn't emphsized, even grapplying and throws. Its in the ITF TKD encyclopedia. Its all there.

Opponents of TKD don't want to believe that there is more than one side of TKD, and that it may not jsut be the sport form. A sport makes you take advantage of its rules to be great. Sport taekwondo, with its snappy kicks and hands at the sides is just that. Taking advantage.

Basically, these people dont want to find that part out.

 

Know exactly what you mean.
Good post.

 

Yes, very well put! Great post.

 

Hi,

I'm an instructor in the TAGB and frankly the traditional syllabus we teach for gradings is a load of b*llocks when it comes to actual combat (pardon me French - sorry if you're French).

There is the argument that the patterns are ideal for those who wish to express themselves in an artistic nature, etc., but be honest - how many people actually join a martial arts club for that? I'd say the majority join for the combat skills. That's just my opinion anyway, and it's the reason I joined and why most people I know joined. I can only comment on what I know or what I've seen.

Anyway, the patterns are alright if you want a bit of physical exercise, but the "reasons behind the techniques" are rubbish. We're told the 360-degree jump in pattern Chung Mu / Choong Moo is used to disorient the openent - er, I think most students are disorentated themselves! And sine wave and the hip twist will never be used in actual combat!

And don't get me started on the step sparring...

I sound like I'm giving TKD a bit of a bashing, but I'm actually a TKD lover through and through, it's my favourite art! I'm just giving an honest perspective on parts of the syllabus I think needs changing.

TKD, like all arts, has good and bad points. It's up to us as the practitioners of the arts to improve them.

Kind regards,

Super Foot

WTF Tae Kwon Do (USTU)

TAGB Tae Kwon Do

IKF Kickboxing

Superfoot System

 

Yes it is.. problem is most clubs dont bother teaching it or never learnt it and simply stick to the sport stuff!

Thats because theres not much to show them different, there no point having throws (for example) as part of TKD, saying its part of TKD, proving its part of TKD by pointing at the manual but not actually practing it as a regular part of class.

Stuart

 

Wont comment on the TAGB, but things need to be aligned more and more combat orientated, especially patterns, hosinsul & sparring, in many clubs, at the moment they are like 3 different entities, something we are trying to recify (details secret at the moments )

LOL.. sorry, did I say, LOL.. Obviously not an argument Id make, nor many others on thsi forum, inlcluding a certain TAGB'er I know. BTW, thats want a LOL at you, just the 'artistic' bit!

Quite agree.. wait til you seen an article I have coming out in combat (those who have read the book will have seen it - its titled "The Making of a Black belt" and it says exactly what you say here and a few other things!

Sorry, but LOL at that too!

Agreed

It has its uses if done right!

Stuart

 

With regards to the Chung Mu comment, that's actually what we're taught!

I Appreciate your feedback

 

TKD IMO gets bashed for many reasons. We have looked at many. I 1st would state that since TKD is the world's most popular MA there is by sheer numbers going to be more problems, hence more bashing. However bashing is not limited to just TKD. I see many other MA schools with problems as well. I think this is why the MMAs have taken off. They simply fill a void that the MAs of yesteryear used to fill.

Now when MAs 1st starting appearing in the west, Judo was very popular, even becoming an Olympic sport. Hollywood started to introduce MA moves in its films, with even Elvis Presley getting involved. Now he was a MA student at some point. Bruce Lee & all those Kung Fu movies mass produced started to circulate as well. TV shows like the Green Hornet & Kung Fu played their parts as well. Now what was this? It was of course about fighting. This new for may fighting ways intrigued many & the popularity of the fighting arts became the new craze.

Now Korea was a country that was war torn by a civil war. A country that struggled to regain its independance from Japan & military dictatorships. At the end of the 2nd WW it was a very poor developing nation. Their civil war destroyed much of the little they had. There was very little economic activity & the harsh military dictatorships did not make it a pleasant place to live. Many Koreans moved abroad. Some of these Koreans were training in original TKD, which was devloped in the ROK Army. Military service was mandatory for all Korean males. So once overseas they started to teach the MA starved students who cravings were perpetuated by Hollywood. Thus TKD became the 1st or early & important export of the ROK.

These 1st generation instructors were tough guys, not so much educated or sophisicated. They saw good money to be made teaching TKD. So they did. In these early days many said the trip from Korea was so long it resulted in higher ranks earned while in transit. So we see inflated & quick or easy promotions is not something new. The other Arts complained about this. There is little doubt it was done to help beat the competition. Now over time, the craze died down. Insurance regulations demanded safety equipment & rules to minimize injuries. Lawsuits in certain areas had the same affect.

Now what was going on back in Korea? The economy started to soar. The KKW & WTF were formed. They used the tournament sparring rules developed earlier in the Ji Do Kwan to make themselves look different from Karate. This development had 2 major influences (?intended/Unintended?). They of course were the fast kicking & quick stepping needed for this attack-counterattack sport sparring match. They were so successful, aided by the ROK govt & growing ROK economy, that they had TKD introduced to the Olympics in 1988 which braodcast it around the world. This feat is astounding when one considers that in the 1936 Berlin Olympics just 52 years earlier, Koreans competed with Japanese names under the Japanese flag & recorded under Japan. Of course we know that eventually TKD became an official Olympic sport.

What else was happening in Korea? Well Colleges & Universities were now offering academic degrees in TKD, along with becoming 4th dan masters upon graduation. These graduates could even earn advanced degrees up to Ph. D
level. This was of course a far cry from the rough & tough military pioneers. These academic graduates moved around the world taking their martial olympic sport with them to teach, not a SD system. What was happening in Hollywood? Well it was no longer just Elvis & 007 who were sporting MA moves, but NOW the Karate KID & Ninja TURTLES. The MAs were fast becoming not only softer but directed to kids.

So the MMA steps in to fill the void! The mcdojos & mcdojangs don't close, but they flourish! Why? Too many kids to babysit & help teach discipline which many look at a good counter to the ever rising ADD/ADHD etc. So overtime more & more watered down MA schools produce more & more weaker BBs, some of open their even more watered down schools which of course often produce even weaker BBs. So the tough ones looking for down & dirty fighting, gravitate towards the MMAs. Many who are not aware & most are not as they are beginners & are often fooled by ads, get sucked into the mcdojos/dojangs. Of course the parents are thrilled as junior says thank you & yes sir, with now their MA teacher also demanding better school grades. So happy mom/dad & happy kids with new belts every time the test fee is paid.

So there are sooooooo many reasons why TKD gets bashed. The bashing is not limited to WTF or Kukki TKD, but ITF & Inds as well. Nor is it IMO limited to just TKD, as this disease has infected many other groups & Arts as well, with a string case being made that TKD started the infection. If it is ever going to be corrected, checked, stopped or reversed, it must IMO retrun to its roots as a mix of the MAs of the 50s, that has its emphasis on SD!

 

To be honest it's not just TKD that gets bashed. I don't think many styles of martial art gets the respect that it used to in the early days.

My feeling is that most people join a club for a self defence "quick fix" but schools welcome them in their droves. A lot get fed up when they realise that its not that way and that a sylabus is just a guide line that can also include a lot of stuff that I don't really care about, but wont swear about, not on MAP, oh no about country history and terminology, thus they usually leave.....never mind, more will come and join. Most do not realise that self defence is a self discovery irrespective of what styles that you learn or teach, including MMA. I have have trained in a few clubs including Wing Chun and in every class I have met someone who lost a fight...............and they all blamed their style and not the teacher!!!

Styles are just a set of tools, some work for people better than others it's just a case of whether you are astute enough to pick the right tool for the job. I think maybe people shouldn't take their styles too literally but more important than that I think supposed Masters of styles should also address some arts for the use in modern day society and strip away the pointless stuff like terminology and history and be honest with the student as to what they are teaching. They are now responsible for a styles credibility and the students wellbeing by what they teach and how they teach it. Karate has suffered, TKD has suffered and the current trend of MMA and FMA WILL suffer, the cycle goes on.

There are however a few instructors that have recognised this and are trying to "swim against the tide" and restore the real function in teaching, like StuartA and Abernethy, well done them!

 

Bootneck6, there's also the information issue. Back in the day there was Karate. There was Judo. There was TKD. There was Aikido. There was a little Kung Fu practiced by strange guys in funny satin suits. And that was pretty much it. You didn't have to be that good to have a reputation. And with the Exotic Wisdom of the Mystic Orient (or was that Mysterious Wisdom of the Exotic Orient?) you could pull the wool over people's eyes pretty easily.

But martial arts got bigger. More teachers showed up. Consumers got more sophisticated. Some of the BS we swallowed without question was debunked. And yes, the Gracie family said "Throw down if you're so dangerous."

TKD was one of the ones that suffered the most from this.

 

Hmm, just reading my earlier post from Feb '08 and I have to say I don't agree with myself now (the first sign of madness? lol). This year has been one of exploration and discovery for me, and I now accept Tae Kwon Do in its entirety, and that all aspects - terminology, history, patterns, step-sparring, free sparring, self-defence and breaking are all interwoven and each is an important process in baking the "Tae Kwon Do cake".

 

I don't find these things pointless at all. In fact they are important elements of what makes TKD an Art designed for self improvement. Now granted they have little to do with SD & if that is what you want, maybe it is best to find a school that specializes in combat & hopefully make a better connection with a good teacher that will be in a good school helping you get what you want. But in TKD the stated goals are more than just SD. So it makes sense that the training must incorporate other aspets to help reach those goals.

 

I'll have another go at answering why TKD gets bashed.
I think it's because it has a poor "good fighters/total number of students" ratio.
By contrast something like BJJ has a much higher ratio.
And something like western boxing even higher I would say.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you to some extent that the good fighters/students ratio as you put it is rather low, but that argument can be made for countless systems and arts, for the pure and simple fact that most students are not fighters in the classic sense.

I'll try to put it simply, being trained, even in a resistant and contact oriented setting simply ups your chances of winning in a confrontation, far to many people look at this art or that and want to argue over who would win in a fight. The sad fact of the matter is that most martial artists regardless of style are hobbyist, even average joe wrestler or boxer has a day job and countless other priorities that interfere with training and no doubt takes up the majority of their time. The average person simply doesn't fight all that often outside of the confines of a competition, (mind you I said most a professional bouncer, riot officer or such person wouldn't fall into this category), and in truth most competitions are more akin to a contests of skills rather than a full on confrontation *granted in some instances a very painful contest*. Hence the presence of tapping, throwing in the towel, technical knockouts and referees for example. Plus we have to remember that in most of the civilized world there are major penalties involved if a fight ensues in public, further complicating the issue.

Now also taking into account the number of schools that are either
A. McDojos, or McGyms in some cases
B. Providing a "work out" not training people to be effective brawlers
C. Are teaching "false confidence" self defense classes, when the instructor has either no qualifying background or has done no research towards the actual application of their art to that end. *These leave an especially bad taste in my mouth*
D. For lack of a better word, fraudulent
E. And finally, simply not up to snuff

Taking all this into consideration is it any wonder that the number of actual "fighters" in the populace is so low? I've been in the arts almost my entire life *short as it may be*, I focus my training towards self defense applications, practice with the ever espoused live - resisting *and unfortunately lol* hitting back opponents, but I would by no means consider myself a good fighter. I feel more confident about my chances, but thats all.

I think that in general a great many of us need to step back and realize that being a martial artist, regardless of style, doesn't make us some kind of urban commando, it simply gives us a leg up on the next guy, or girl as the case may be. Sorry for the long post but I needed to get that out hehe.