Why is Taekwondo looked down on?

I just think that this is 2009 and that was the 1950's.They were the army who were being asked to kill,they had guns and back up.They had a mindset to kill drilled into them.In that situation for that time it was working for them.
In 2009 with no drilled mindset to kill for our countrys in the Dojo,no guns or bayonets and no back up,then a different approach is needed.A 2009 approach.Same fundamental techniques and ideas just a modern way to train and drill and use.
As this is not done it lookes dated doing it like 1950.Just my view and a big reason why I believe it is not looked on well by some others.
The very first Ford car in a race against the brand new model would loose.Its not bad or saying the first car is useless just it wont hold up.It gets left behind.Untill it sticks the new models engine in.

 

You have brought up some good points in this thread and the "A Killing Art" thread. I saw some S korean army stuff and it said they had a bit of kook sul in their stuff now, but I am wondering if you would have any youtubes or something of this original tkd sd you talk of. Im not saying this to provoke or anything, but am truely interested. When I do a youtube search i tend to only recieve the usual itf and wtf not very usefull stuff. Could you point me in a direction of this original tkd as choi wanted it?

 

Good post

 

Thank you. Now I am not sure about you tube or clips. Everything can be found in the 15 volume Encyclopedia of TKD written by Choi. Unfortantely many do not follow his directions on this. So one may not find it in many ITF schools. This is really not about ITF vs WTF or any other style or type of TKD. It all boils down to the individual school, student & instructor.
It is sad that Gen Choi, who traveled the world numerous times a year, focused almost solely on his patterns & his signature movement. They became his signature, his legacy. In fact, he did it so well, that millions around the world in 100+ nations all do his forms & do it the way he wanted. This level of standardization is unmatched as far as I know. The down side is that this is what most ITF school focus on. Of course they also emphasize their unique tournament sport match rules as well. I do not see the same level of standarization with the 3 types of step sparring, he called pre arranged sparring, or the other 5 types of sparring he outlined. That is sad, as it is the key to understanding his method of fighting & SD.
Now one must not confuse original TKD with what they did in the military originally. Early TKD in the 1950s only had 4 Korean forms. It was not till Gen Choi was an Ambassador to Malaysia that he added 16 more & then till the late 60s when he added the final 4. Of course in the 80s 1 form was swapped out for an newer one. I use the term original to denote Gen Choi's TKD, whose development started in the The Republic of Korea's Army. At that time they were the only ones really using the name TKD. Since then it of course has evolved as did the other kwans who also moved away from karate in their own way, degree & time frame.
Now I am aware of training film put out by an American company that tries to highlight the 6 types of sparring that Gen Choi advocated. Maybe that can be found on line. There I think you can see a free sparring with equipment & use of more than just legal tournament techniques, including fighting on the floor. Basically if one allows all techniques & does it under as realistic conditions as possible, then free sparring will become "essentially open combat" as the founder described. Sadly not enough in TKD do this. They seem to be preoccuppied with tournament sports matches & fake SD that is more show for a demo than real fighting!
Also the few clips I have seen from the 1950s is mostly karate like. There was no internet, you tube or few cameras in what was a very poor country at the time

 

Not completely on topic, but what was the pattern they swapped juche for? Does anyone have the diagram and list of movements? Also was it done with sein wave, or was that pattern before that??

 

Ko Dang became Juche to appease the North Koreans.

Mitch is so right, bouncy sine wave's sooo wrong.

 

1. Move the right foot to AC to form a sitting stance toward AD, at the same time executing a middle pushing block to AD with the left palm.
2. Execute a middle punch to AD with the right fist, maintaining a sitting stance toward AD.
3. Move the right foot on line CD, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a middle guarding block to D with the forearm.
4. Execute a low block to AD with the right outer forearm and a middle side block to D with the left inner forearm, maintaining a right L-stance toward D.
5. Move the left foot to BC forming a sitting stance toward BD, at the same time executing a middle pushing block to BD with the right palm.
6. Execute a middle punch to BD with the left fist, maintaining a sitting stance toward BD.
7. Move the left foot on line CD, forming a left L-stance toward D while executing a middle guarding block to D with the forearm.
8. Execute a low block to BD with the left outer forearm and a middle side block to D with the right inner forearm, maintaining a left L-stance toward D.
9. Turn the face toward C forming a left bending ready stance B toward D.
10. Execute a middle back piercing kick to C with the right foot.
11. Lower the right foot to C, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a middle block to D with the left knife hand
12. Turn the face toward C forming a right bending ready stance B toward D.
13. Execute a middle back piercing kick to C with the left foot.
14. Lower the left foot to C, forming a left L-stance toward D while executing a middle block to D with the right knife hand
15. Move the right foot to C, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a downward thrust to D with the left straight elbow.
16. Move the left foot to C, forming a left L-stance toward D while executing a downward thrust to D with the right straight elbow.
17. Move the left foot to D to form a left walking stance toward D while executing a pressing block to D with the right palm.
18. Move the right foot to D to form a right walking stance toward D while executing a pressing block to D with the left palm.
19. Move the right foot to C forming a right L-stance toward D, while executing a downward block to D with the left outer forearm.
20. Move the right foot to D forming a left L-stance toward D, while executing a downward block to D with the right outer forearm.
21. Move the left foot to D, forming a right rear foot stance toward D, at the same time executing an upward block to D with the left palm.
22. Move the right foot to D, forming a left rear foot stance toward D, at the same time executing an upward block to D with the right palm.
23. Move the right foot to C, forming a right rear foot stance toward D, and then execute a middle side front snap kick to D with the left foot, keeping the position of the hands as they were in 22.
Perform 24 and 25 in a continuous motion:
24. Lower the left foot to D, forming a left walking stance toward D while executing a high inward strike to D with a twin knife-hand.
25. Execute a rising block with the left knife hand, maintaining a left walking stance toward D
26. Execute a low guarding block to D with a knife hand, while forming a right L-stance toward D, pulling the left foot.
27. Execute a downward punch to D with the right fist while forming a left walking stance toward D, slipping the left foot.
28. Move the left foot to the side rear of the right foot and then slide to C, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a middle guarding block to D with a knife hand.
29. Jump and land on the same spot, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a middle guarding block to D with a knife hand.
30. Jump to D to form a right X-stance toward BD, while executing a high side strike to D with the right back fist.
31. Move the left foot to C, forming a left walking stance toward C, at the same time executing a high side block to C with the left outer forearm.
32. Move the left foot on line CD, forming a right walking stance toward D while executing a high side block to D with the right outer forearm.
33. Move the left foot to D, forming a right L-stance toward D, at the same time executing an upset punch to D with the right fist and bringing the left side fist in front of the right shoulder.
34. Execute a middle hook kick to A with the right foot.
35. Lower the right foot to A, forming a left L-stance toward A while executing a high cross cut to A with the right flat finger tip.
36. Bring the right foot to the left foot and then execute a middle hook kick to B with the left foot.
37. Lower the left foot to B, forming a right L-stance toward B, at the same time executing a high cross cut to B with the left flat finger tip.
38. Bring the left foot to the right foot, and then move the right foot to A forming a left L-stance toward A, at the same time executing a high guarding block to A with a knife hand.
39. Bring the right foot to the left foot, and then move the left foot to B forming a right L-stance toward B, at the same time executing a high guarding block to B with a knife hand.
END: Move the left foot to a ready stance C facing D.


it was replaced by juche in 1986
the modern sine wave was first introduced in 1983

 

the ulitmate reason why taekwondo is look down on is because people still believe one art is better than the other. what people don't understand is that is not the art itself but the mindset and ability of the person that makes him/her and good fighter not the art.

 

Yeah I know this guy who is a black belt in origami, and everyone says its useless as a fighting art, but this guy's mindset totally makes up for it, and I reckon he could kick their asses anyway.
But seriously I agree that it has to do with mindset, but it also has to do with the art, you can't say they are all equal, some are better at other things, and some are very dubious in their effectiveness entirely.

 

It is funny. I had ordered the Machida instructional DVDs (prior to the Machida fight). I watched the first one last night. I almost fell asleep watching it because everything in it is so similar to what we'd been taught in TKD.

This includes the head being at the centerpoint and changing levels very minimally. The way our instructor used to put it was pretend you are moving with a book on your head and you don't want it to fall off. We were told that this would make your movements deceptive to your opponent (that they wouldn't see the kicks, punches, etc coming).

So sine wave was a complete surprise to me. And I'll confess part of me started wondering if the lack of head movement was something that was only good for point-sparring and nothing else. I had actually stopped trying to minimize head movement in my own sparring. My wife actually noticed this and started chastising me for it.

But I thought I was 'evolving'. Now Machida says the way my teacher told me to do it was the right way and for the very same reasons. I can only hang my head in shame!

In short I think sine wave was the worst possible thing that happened to ITF TKD.

 

Thank you TKDstudent, that was a very interesting post and I will definately look into that a bit closer

 

is that is not the art itself but the mindset and ability of the person that makes him/her and good fighter not the art.

God I hate that cliche. How you train, what you train, what drills you practice, what resistance you must overcome and the whole training enviroment DIRECTLY effect the mindset and ability of a person in a fight.
Doing a style that teaches you what to do when a fight goes to the floor DIRECTLY effects how well you can fight on the floor.
People who do TKD for 10 years are generally good kickers because of their training not despite it.

 

First of all, excuse the late reply but I've been away for the last few days.

Okay, in order not to get into a debate about this.. I guess I was refering to your comments, not you per se, apologies if it came across that way (which it probibly did), which is my fault as obviously I dont know you so can only respond to your comments.

No.. you said "Is that a way of saying TKD is an art to stop 3 on 1 assualts with bats and knife attacks?"... which (as I pointed out) it obviously wasnt as I already described what I meant.. that was pretty clear in my post I think!

Oh, I quite agree... which is precisely the reason I wrote it in reply to vismitananda blanket statement.. the only difference is, in my case, I have substance as I know its actually worked in SD and have students as living proof.. where as he just basically said "nope.. its crap for SD"...

Same in all arts I would suggest or are you saying thers an art that works 100% of the time for 100% of the students in an SD role... !!!

Do I care.. these are the same people that would witness soemthing working right in front of their face, or perhaps a TKD guy going into the UFC (as an example PASmith and Arron-Mag ).. winning and then still saying something like "oh.. it wasnt TKD it was his cross-training or he survived with a Thai kick or something!! I'm not here to promote TKD to other martial arts.. they have already chosen their paths, but I do wish to promote the decent side of TKD to its own students! Besides, no matter what their thoughts are.. the facts still remain.. I teach TKD.. it HAS worked in SD.. so the post was incorrect!

See above.. but water under the bridge anyway

Why would that make me happy... I like nice people.. I'm nice really.. honest

Im confused.. if tone is difficult to get on here... why would you presume I spoke tyo you in a certain tone... TBH, I spoke to you in the same way id speak to anyone else.. ona forum, on the phone or in person..

Now this is where it all falls a little flat... which is not your fault TBH... not long ago on here a certain anon poster comes on, states I mean no offence or something and starts trying (unsucessfully mind you) to cut into people, so apologies if this is harsh, but its kinda like starting a sentence with "No offence meant but..." as thats precisely the reason its said, because an "offence is comming... Im not saying you did this, but on forums many do.. so please, feel free to ask your questions, or make comments and Ill respond as I feel its needed.. sometimes (if) it doesnt come across as polite, then Im sorry, but thats just the way things are on forums, as you have so rightly pointed out that tones do not come across and anything you feel is too out of order can be reported to a moderator and they will swiftly deal with it (whether its me or anyone else), however, rest assured.. I am not here to get into arguments, but will protect areas I see as being misrepresented and of course my own statements if they are made, even unintentionally, to look as if I said something i didnt!

Please do, as they are decent books on the subject. However, I am interested on your thoughts know you know that not only are they part of TKD, but are such a big part that they warrented their own books and am a little surprised you havent broached that in your reply.

Again, a weird response to the fact that TKD had gun defences decades ago and something it seems you didnt know... personally Id say "wow"! :woo:

As many smirk at things other arts do... me, i let them get on with it and only post about things I know!

You said it about TKD (directly or indirectly).. hence why I responded!!!

TKD had a modern twist at its inception... antything that remains stagnant eventually becomes redundant, so when it coems to SD, it pays to keep up with new information!! Its not really a modern twist just common sense really!

Drills are drills.. personally, Id take what ever method trains the techniques and their applications the most efficiently.. if used to improve the throws in TKD, thus they become TKD drills do they not, as the end product is the main thrust of using them.. besides, why would TKD instructors with BB's in judo not already employ such drills!!

Steve Morris is a legend... a MMA pioneer before the word MMA had even been considered... are you a student of his or just using his ideology?


... part 2 in next post

 

Part 2

I agree as far a throws and even a take on randori.. what about kicks and hand strikes?

Agreed and thats because many are short sighted and only do what they are told... however, for TKD to become more reputable in others eyes, the TKd world need to get its whole act togethor first, but this is unlikely to happen, but still, blanket statements like the one originally made are still incorrect.. TK, if taught decently, is decent for SD!

Actually, as you may see in my above comments, I do agree with some of your points... its the way you have put them across that makes it look like your ripping things apart, perhaps you should reread your original post with a fresh perspective!

Coming on and posting how what I said would embarrass you (despite the fact that its true) doesnt seem very helpful to me!


Stuart

Ps. had to post in shorter bits for some reason!!

 

Whilst I agree mostly with this post, I think the 2009/1950s bit misses the point somewhat. The point of weapons defences was not because they carried guns, had back up, had to kill etc. it was in case a soldier lost his gun (for whatever reason).. meaning he would be left facing an enemy with a weapon and thus would need a method to take him on with.

The mindset and reasoning is still valuable today, more so with guns and weapons becoming increasingly common, though of course times have changed and weapons have changed (and of course methods have been updated) and thus methods should change and adapt as well. The problem is, certain areas of TKD have basically been forgotton since the focus in sport grew and of course as TKDStudent said, the approcah to standardization was pushed above all things in the ITF... these things are no longer passed on from instructor to student (the next generation of instructors) and organisations of course dont teach them or demand them as standard criteria for gradings, but they are there!

Stuart

 

Sorry, but gotta agree with Jeffkins and PASmith here in that mindset is importat, but the actual training (ways of training that is) are just as important.

Strong mindset + crap training methods = poor results
Crap mindset + Good training methods = poor results
Good mindset + good training methods = Good result

Stuart

 

Personally I would have posted "Stone Cold Steve Austin" for your second last post, and continued after that.

I talked to a friend who's in TKD and when throws were mentioned, she said they don't have any. When I asked her what her favorite part of TKD was, she mentioned full-contact sparring.

-Kraen

 

Sorry.. was this in response to me... I don't get it.. please explain?

Then she is missing part of TKD training unfortunatly.. same as in many schools.

Ask her what other parts of TKd her school covers... bet she says 'Poomse'!

Cheers,

Stuart

 

my friend did TKD when he was 6, he had a black belt in the art
by the time he was 8..

also, a TKD guy told me to punch by wrapping my fingers around my thumb
(so the thumb was tucked in) as opposed to curling the fingers first
and laying the thumb on top.

just my 2 yen with the art