Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*

Either that or meet up outside after school!

Haw flexi god! you got mail!

 

What I find hilarious about this thread is that we have a guy who does not do TKD (Mitlov) as the main 'Defender of the Art'.

Master Betty and Killa Gorillas: congratulations. You guys have 'found the light'. Through sweat, tears, pain, adversity, etc you have found a greater truth. I'm happy for you guys. What seems to be the problem? You talk of Mitlov having a 'chip on his shoulder' yet it seems like you guys are saying, "Dang it all. I will not leave you poor souls in ignorance. I will drag you to the light of truth. It is my sacred duty..."

But most of us, by now, have done some MMA type training. We have no problem with it. We may even like it and have incorporated what we like. I like to watch it. I even like grapple a couple times a week. But that doesn't mean I think everyone has to do it exactly like I do it. Mitch likes to work the clinch vs ground work. You know what? He might be right in that it might be a better area to focus on in terms of SD. My clinch fricken SUCKS. I never work on knees in clinch. I guess I'd go for a throw. I don't have all the time in the world to train every aspect of martial arts. If I win the lottery I'll think about it. You pick and choose and you usually end up doing what you like. What gives you energy to face the week.

For me that is TKD and sports style grappling (no strikes). I like the training of TKD. I like the jump kicks. I'm not even built well for jump kicks, but I like practicing them. Its fun. Its good exercise. And as far as sports style grappling goes it can lead to some bad habits. We'll often, for example, be going for a knee bar from a position where the guy could be raining down punches. Note usually the position is so bad you have to give it up without the knee bar anyway, but the point is we don't train with self-defense as the primary goal. Its trained for fun and exercise. And of course there is some direct transfer of skill of sport to self defense.

I've heard it said that the best form of exercise is the one you'll keep doing. For me that is TKD and it is for a lot of other people as well. If they want to do a different martial art, well it is a free country. Nothing is stopping them. Some people like running. Some people rock climb. Some people kayak. Whatever floats your boat. Its good for people to have a hobby outside of work. I don't see the problem with it.

 

Sorry pal. Was busy grooming young girls on Facebook. Will reply later tonight.

 

bla bla bla

the OP asked a good question. We didnt go into TKD bashing mode - we gave him the honest reason.

Who gives a toss whether you like it or not, or whether me and gorilla dont? thats not the issue! the issue is WHY DO PEOPLE CONSIDER TKD AS WEAK AND INEFFECTIVE. Thats the reasons. Just because you dont like the reasons isn't a case for argument.

 

It's not really like that though bro. If anything I think Mitlov appears far more zealous, illogical, and unreasonable in his defense of TKD even though I have not really attacked it but been quite fair in laying out the common criticisms of it, in a thread asking for just that. I'm here really to defend and clarify my opinion which is being refuted, rather than to deride anybodies practice.

When people resort to criticising my earnest efforts to provide them with the evidence they have requested to illustrate the reasons for my opinions and further debate, seem incapable of following a logical argument, attempt to shift the goal post of the debate seemingly to suit their own need to be right, and misrepresent the tone and intention of my posting then I have a problem with them and feel they do the site a disservice through their continuing ignorant and moronic behaviour.

 

You know as long as the participants are happy then, false advertising aside, what does it matter? Master Betty's fiirst link mentioned helping in self defence or something along those lines, that seems sufficient description of most semi contact arts regardless of style. Any more might be leaning towards dishonesty

 

PM sent. This doesn't need to be done in an open forum.

 

Totally agree. Who give a toss? While I had a thought that you might burst into tears and say, "Man Aaron likes it and I've been criticizing it! I feel soooo bad..." I also had a feeling that might not be the case. (note, I am joking around since sometimes this kind of thing doesn't translate well into text).

You don't like it. Cool. I can accept that. Of course your life will be meaningless and the great creator above will punish you for your sin and ignorance in the next life, but I that is your loss....

But why have pages and pages rehashing the same dang things over and over again? We need to get back to arguing over the meaning and finger placement of movement 15 in Won Hyo.

 

Mitlov isn't even a TKD practitioner. He tried it in the past and apparently it wasn't for him. He may even agree with some of your criticisms of it. What I think he is objecting to the vilifying it because it is a mixture of martial sport and art. Which it is. And from what I can gather all he is saying is, "Hey, lots of things are a mixture of art and sport."

Now if you'll excuse me I am trying to punch myself out of a wet paper sack that someone has mashed me into. You'd think after years of TKD training I'd be able to do it, but alas, as many of you have observed, it has been so useless to me that I'm effectively trapped. Anyone have a knife they can loan me? Even a butter one will do...

 

I trained in TKD for about about four years, minus a couple months here and there for health issues and summer breaks. I ceased TKD training because I graduated college (it was a college club) and moved 3,000 miles away to a place with a strong Shotokan program and no appealing TKD program (Eugene, OR). I actually really enjoyed TKD and would have no objections to going back to it. However, I also really like fencing, and where I'm living now (Medford, OR), I think the local fencing scene is a better overall program than the local TKD scene (and both are more appealing than the local karate scene). That's not to say that the local TKD dojang is bad, having watched a class and seen a ton of physical conditioning and pad-work (though it's overpriced and the classes are too short, I'll say that much), but the local fencing program is a better overall package.

I personally hate one-step sparring and don't think it's good for much of anything. No argument there. But it wasn't a significant part of my TKD experience (even though it's mentioned on my college TKD club's webpage).

Yes, that's part of it.

I've got a spare saber you can borrow :hat:

 

I have no quarrel with your conclusions. My only focus was to ensure that if one were to point fingers that those fingers don't automatically all point in a single direction. What I was reading was a heavy concern about how things are marketed. My point was to make sure we do not forget the responsibilities of the people who respond to that marketing. Whether or not a particular activity is marketed in some way or another does not discount that folks who come to an art ALSO use and represent that art in ways that may be, or may not be consistent with how it was originally sold. In this way, a teacher who represents his material as a "martial art" may have a student who represents what he is studying as more of a military science. Related, but different, things. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

There seems to be a universal disdain for one step sparring in this thread. I think if the format is adjusted it can be a valuable training tool.

 

As we all know already, nobody actually punches and leaves it out there for a second or ten!!! :woo:

Starting point may be to replace that unrealistic attack with an attempted or actual grab, which is slower. This could allow pre-emptive strategies for the attempted grab and possibly closer range striking and grappling for the actual grab. Then maybe stand against a wall, on stairs, in a doorway etc to add some environmental adjustments.

Respectfully

Peter

 

I think if a one-step consists of the following, it's useful:

(1) Starting from a realistic stance, attacker performs a pre-arranged but realistically-performed attack, at half-speed or full-speed depending on the participants.

(2) Defender performs a pre-arranged but realistically-performed defense (either block or movement) and counterattack, same speed as the attacker.

Optional: attacker performs a pre-arranged but realistically-performed defense and counter-counter-attack, same speed.

This sort of drill helps build muscle memory; we used it at my TKD club and we use it in fencing training. I suppose it could be accurately be called "one-step sparring," but it's not based off of silly responses to front-stance-stepping-punches, so it's not what most people (including myself) think of when they use the term "one-step."

 

Actually I've often wondered if one-step that involves knife/gun disarms work better than the punching ones because, conceivably in a SD situation, there is a time when someone is just holding the weapon out there and demanding money/whatever.

We did 'knife sparring' sometimes and typically found that, at that point, you get cut up a lot. It would have to be the moment where there is just the implicit threat, but before the moment of attack.

 

No matter how "realistic" one makes the training, there will always be a question in student's minds: "Does this stuff really work?" Both FUNAKOSHI Gichin (SHOTOKAN Karate) and KANO Jigoro (KODOKAN Judo) reported that they, themselves, their fellow students and later their own students ---when Funakoshi and Kano became teachers--- were just itching to try out their skills. It was a very popular strategy to hide along darkened lanes and wait for passer-by-s to come along. Both Motobu and Kyan were renowned for their repeated engagements in Okinawan "party" areas.

What I am saying is that hiding under some level of this discussion is a very common curiousity as to whether what we practice will actually produce the result we dream of and have been told it will. I notice that noone is all-fired excited about heading off to a crack-house in the nearest city to pick a fight. Nor do I hear anyone voluteering to ride the public transportation in some big cities in the hopes of dealing with a thug who is in need of some serious "adjusting". What I seem to be getting is a rather routine.....and honestly---a bit tiresome.....re-chewing of the same old speculation that goes with each person advocating for their own approach. So, unless I miss my guess, what seems to be going down here seems to have a lot more to do with people musing. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, but I wonder why people have not elected to actually take various approaches out onto the street----the place where everyone seems to think things count---- and start keeping statistics on what succeeds and what does not. I would be interested to know how many people actually get sued....which is a common theme in these discussions.....for excessive force. I would like to know how many times high kicks succeed over other tactics. I would honestly like an accurate count of the number of fights that truely "end-up on the ground. My sense is that without some solid research, what we have here is an exercise in mental and emotional masturbation, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Masturbation is more fun, more relaxing, and generally far shorter than this thread has been.

 

I agree with part of this, the part underlined above on how it is taught.
TKD is the world's most popular MA, or it is the MA that has the most practioners in the world.
However TKD is a single name used to describe many different types of activities or various styles of TKD. This creates a GIGANTIC problem, as it causes much confusion.
Now this is not a stab at anyone's style or a poke at someone's weak training methods. Rather it is an attempt to explain how TKD went from a consolidated MA that was initially made up for SD from fighting systems that were available to soldiers in the ROK Military back in the 1950s, when it was 1st devised.

So we must know that there are many activities that call themselves TKD. the 2 main groups are loosely labeled ITF (Chang Hon) or Original SD TKD & WTF (Kukki) or Olympic Sport TKD. Now there are members of both sets that do a great job, as well as those in both that are simply beyond terrible. In all MAs this is the case, as it is also the case in all MAs where there are bad instructors who simply rip off & rob their students.

It does matter how it is taught. But the style is important as well. If one has a sports focus, then that will effect SD outcome, just the same as a realistic combat approach focus will also effect SD outcome. I don't think one has to have the highest level IQ to figure out which focus will best help one to increase their SD skills & capabilities. It is both the style & how that style is taught. Sport focus is simply not logically the best way to build your SD skills IMNSHO!