Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Um... What would that prove, A. And B, there are plenty of TMAs kicking the crap out of MMA guys. In fact, I believe i've seen a few on bullshido of some.

But again, what does that prove? Most of the people in my ninpo class would wipe the floor with the guys back from my MT gym. But Ive also been to another ninpo dojo that would get in the fetal position when faced against someone.

I guess what you're saying is your a MMA nutrider. Is that right?

 

the traditional martial artists who beat "mma guys" (composed of traditional martial arts) do so by cross-training. The bullshido members you refer to, Asia, Omega, etc. have been crosstraining TMA's for various ranges for decades. They do indeed call themselves kung fu fighters, becasue kung fu is not one style, but a method or perfecting your trade, in this case, fighting. If you can sew really well, your gung fu is strong. These guys can strike, and they can grapple. They do judo and traditional 'kung fu' styles such as Baji. Asia recently took first place at NAGA, Omega has been doing Judo for decades. Both will tell you that cross-training is essential. They both dominate the "throwdowns" by the way, beating up many a 'one styler'

Though why should I speak for them, they'll tell you themselves. And just to make sure I dont get grouped with Bullshido trolls, I dont even post there, just lurk.

I dont know anything about your old MT gym (MT being a traditional martial art, by the way) or your new ninpo one, so who knows. Now if your old MT gym members crosstrained in a grappling art, I would have major doubts about them losing to ninpo members of any dojo.

Cross training matters.

as far as "MMA nut-hugging" I'm not an MMA nut-hugger, I'm a cross training nutt-hugger.

I enjoy MMA because it shows how important being able to fight at all ranges is.

 

Whats funny in all this is that I actually agree that cross-training is a great thing...for those who want or need it. I do, in fact, have some experience in wrestling/grappling and also in Judo and have dabbled in boxing as well, though boxing to me mostly common sense, reflex and training as opposed to high difficulty level IMHO (and then some are built like Tyson who in his day would have been a monster in any fighting art I think). I also would like to look into some BJJ at some point if I ever get time.

When you apply the best pieces of everything you know together, it obviously is going to benefit a person overall. That is just common sense. So what...not rocket science.

So, why do I respond to you like I did? Sometimes people just come in here blasting around as though they know everything about everything and it is all cut and dried and they start lumping everyone together who does any TMA and suggests that they would not hold water to an MMAer. Even if you are correct (not saying you are)....WHO CARES!? The majority of TMAers are not into it so that they can walk around with their chest out feeling all tough and fearless. I think that is the biggest difference between TMAers and all those who try to belittle TMAs. We do not have the same aspirations in general and those opposed just do not get it. And I also think some are ****ed off that they do not always get a nice crisp black belt ...thus the 'Why do you need a belt?' threads started by those who do not have them in their orgs.

Why do you care enough to even pipe in? What is it that threatens you so much that you need to take an aggressive stance and pit TMA against MMA or anything of the sort? If you are confident in yourself and in what you do than nothing else should matter, so why bother? I don't get it...

So, in summary I would say that in general MMAers have a different goal in mind than the average TMAer, and that is great. But why bother coming in here to try to then pitt one against the other? Makes no sense.

 

K, well for one, cross training is fine, but doesnt really have much to do with MMA. But, i suppose, in a sense, it does. Would ninpo be MMA to you? Since it covers ground fighting, stand up, weapons, striking, grappling? Or... no?

I'll put it this way. Just because you cross train in some arts doesnt necessarily mean you fall under a MMArtist (in the way mma is viewed today). But if you are a MMArtist, it DOES mean you cross train.

Which is fine, for the ring, or other dueling type confrontations. But, if you take the words literally, ie: Mixed martial arts, then a few TMAs are included in the mix. So again, what does this prove?

You even say sparring is the only way to get good, which is a good point... if you want to get good at sparring. Or at least sparring's older brother, the UFC-type fights. Nothing wrong with that either.

But for those of us who dont want to do that, does that mean we cant hold our own? This Praying Mantis guy cant fight cuz he doesnt spar? The MT guys from my old gym would be able to beat the Ninpo guys if they crosstrained? Why is that? That seems rather ignorant and biased. Do you even know anything about ninpo? What would the rules be in this "fight"? What advantage do the MT + MMA guys have over the ninpo guys?

Strange, I say.

Seems all you've done this whole time is spout unsubstantiated opinions and bias, not really anything to add to the subject.

The best part is, the more and more I practice budo, the more I realize how the TMAs of old were the MMAs of their day. Its funny that people like DS think this is some strange awesome revolutionary thing to cross train, while most fighters from hundreds of years ago were already training in mutiple ryu, or schools, all the time.

 

MMA as it is these days is more of a name for the kind of training pride/ufc/etc fighters do. it tends to be fairly similar between gyms, maybe with focuses on slightly different areas, but they all cover the same aspects. much like how different muay thai gyms have different methods of training, but it all generally boils down to the same thing. cross training is not MMA because cross training IS NOT mixing arts. if you do 2 classes of judo a week and 2 classes of boxing a week, you are not mixing them at all. if you do two classes of boxing, 2 of judo, and then 2 classes where you COMBINE the two- for instance where you would work on setting up throws with a 1-2 then a level change, sparring starting at boxing range and going to the clinch and then the ground- THAT is mixing martial arts. I am not a mixed martial artist despite having studied several arts.

thats my opinion anyway

 

I agree. In fact, I would say MMA generally referrs specifically to the Thai Boxing Brazilian Jiujutsu combination. Occassionally, you'll get other influences, too, but the term MMA now day usually means those two things are the core of the system.

 

Claiming to be good at fighting when you're not good at hard sparring is like saying you can bench press 100kg when you can't even do 50. It doesn't make sense.

 

If you dont spar, you cant fight, period. Hitting the air and kiaping is all well and good, but woe betide you stepping into the ring with a boxer that spends most of his time sparing. Sparing is the most important part of training.

MMA isnt cross training, its becoming its own definative "style" these days. Its basically a mix of boxing, mt, judo, freestyle wrestling, greco roman and bjj. If you dont go to a MMA gym, you arent doing MMA. Doing MT and BJJ doesnt mean your training MMA, your'e training MT and BJJ.

I hate the kungfu guys saying they do MMA because they learn striking and grappling at their dojos. Your doing kungfu, not MMA. MMA is a sport. Just because you do punching at your dojo, doesnt mean you do boxing.

 

Exactly. Though its more like saying "I can bench 100kgs" when you dont bench at all. Dont even lift weights.

 

This is kinda true, but I think that once styles start incorporating all ranges into their training and being honest about what really does and doesn't work then there isn't really a great deal of difference between them. The more different clubs train properly the less meaningful the different names become.

 

All styles pretty much look the same when trained with maximum simplicity and effectivness.

 

If you dont spar, you will never learn how in a situation you will react. Look at Mirko Filapovich (CroCop), he reacts instinctively because he fights a lot. He can dodge through and past punches because he has trained beforehand. He hits all the openings and takes all the opportunities. Its all well saying 'I would do this' but until you do it you don't know.

 

So even if you train with resisting opponents and in an "alive" setting, but you dont spar, you suck?

Crap, I better go tell everyone.

 

I wonder, of course, what makes any of you the authority on the subject. Honestly you sound like a bunch of puppets. Where do you draw your conclusions from?

 

From common sense. What makes you an authority over MMA contestors (yes we do have some) people who crosstrain regularly (yes got some of those too) and over people with common sense. Why the heck do you think in Krav Maga and Defendo you get Combat School training where you run around and try to fight eachother? You NEVER know how you will react in a situation unless you have either been highly trained or you have been there before. Sparring is as close to a fight as you can get.
If you honestly believe that training in pre-set techniques, even in an alive situation, works, jump in the ring with one of MAPs MMA'ers at the MAP meet, come on whats the worst that could happen

 

er, forgive my ignorance, but how does one train against fully resisting opponents in an alive setting without sparring?

If one person is trying to hit you while not getting hit, while you are trying to hit him while not getting hit, and you are actually resisting against eachother... Isn't that sparring?

 

I wonder if we are getting tripped up on the definition of sparring?

For example: Last week I went 5 mins throwing punches at someone, then another 5 min. defending punches from that person and then 15 minutes of anything goes (but separating after going to the ground, this was a MT not a JJ training night). So would the time I spent just throwing or defending punches be considered sparring?

 

this is the same guy who was espousing smacking your legs with sticks at one stage because he trained in muay thai for a year and thus knew all about it. just ignore him.

 

if you are *just* throwing punches or *just* defending punches, you are drilling, not sparring. If both parties are defending and offending (tee hee) then you are sparring with aliveness.

Or so I am told....

 

Well duh, everyone knows you don't hit your legs with sticks in Muay Thai.

You hit yourself in the head with sticks so you can loose enough I.Q. points to practice Muay Thai.
All Thai fiighters start as Escrimadors.