Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 17, 2005.


    INTERNAL BOXING Banned Banned

    Why if I study karate and I get beat does karate suck? How come I don't suck? Why does everyone blame the system for the practioner of the system that sucks? Which is why I think MMA Style is so popular because it's easy to get good at these arts sooner. If you study praying mantis your not going to beat a mma person with six months of training compared to your six months in praying mantis but what about after you both have 5 years of training? What do you guys/gals think?
  2. Oddball

    Oddball New Member

    I think it's all personal taste. People generally assume that if a student of said art, fights another student of a different art, their talent is directly related to the training based on that arts technique system. I think that all arts have their advantages.
  3. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    once again the style vs. style thread but hey. ill go there and start it. yes. i've noticed that too that lots of people tend to blame the system on acount of the practictioner {expecially when dealing with boxers and the arts} but the point here is that even at 5 years the MMA guy is going to be a god. excellent striking, excellent grappling. clinch, versed in the use of all 8 limbs. {hands feet bows knees} and the Mantis guy will be very very good at the very very few techniques he uses. but i'd put my money and say that he didn't test them against a grappling, or clinch scenario. too many of the TMAs focus on striking and only their style of striking. unless pressure testing was involved the mantis guy is screwed. but honestly. too many variables. and i;ve come full circle back to your original point. blame the practitioner, not the style.

    Hope i answered your question.

    INTERNAL BOXING Banned Banned

    I agree that all arts have advantages and do believe that every art is based in logic and if practiced enough could be a great art.

    True but if the praying mantis guy was better than the mma guy he would win. which means that it's the person and not the style.

    but why do people all say mma is better i dont think mma is better i think the people that practice it are professionals and train very hard if tradional martial artists trained as hard as randy couture they could probally hang with him.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2005
  5. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    i highly doubt that simply because even it the training regimens were exactly the same {conditioning wise} the techniques are still so diffrent and varied. MMA has SO MUCH variety while most other arts only vore those tried and ture one or 2 aspects when MMA covers ALL so simply by diversity alone, the MMA guy would win. lest not forget if its a TMA. then theres most likely ZERO PRESSURE TESTING!!! cause if they tested the Techniques alot of people would see the flaw in alot of trademark techniques that set styles apart. not to mention that TKD would no longer exist.

    INTERNAL BOXING Banned Banned

    So it's your opnion that mma has discovered pretty much all the usefull techniques there are.
  7. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    I dunno much about praying mantis, but I can bet money that the MMA guy will still win after 5 years. If it's an even match, then why would you rather take longer to learn a style, instead of going the easy way to learn the same thing?


    INTERNAL BOXING Banned Banned

    Huh you got me on that one,you got me good. I'm speechless anyone got a opninon on that? To all you TMA guys.
  9. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    an excuse I hear a lot is "well after 20 years, the (insert tma here) guy will be able to kick the other dudes ass because he will be damaged from the sport, and (insert tma here) relies on skill not strength"

    the fundamental flaw I see here is the fact that most people start up martial arts in their teens or twenties right? and when are you most likely to get involved in a fight, down at the local club or at the old folks home?

    but like ive said, training method>style. style is a name. if you train in a style hard, using techniques that work, in a live setting, you will be a good fighter. if you dont you wont. however I believe the amount of moves that are truly effective is not that high. certainly not as many as some arts will try to teach you.

    INTERNAL BOXING Banned Banned

    however it depends on how you classify(spelling) diffrent moves some arts use the same move do defend against 30 diffrent attack but call each its own move.
  11. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    The first half of your post is excellent and I fully agree that the diversity and logical way MMA is put togther gives it and advantage, which is why so many TMA people cross train. However how can you say there is zero pressure testing in TMA's and that TKD would no longer exist, you have no basis for this statement and in my opinion it is obviously false. I study TKD and we do plenty of pressure testing, and people who compete in TKD probably have many more competitive bouts than lots of the 'hardcore' arts and MMA practitioners.

    Obvious attempt to start a flame war IMO.
  12. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    thanks. as for the second half of post. i say that there is no pressure testing becuase from my experiances. well there just isn't. a good example is TKD now, as you said TKD guys will more than likely have alot more competitive bouts. i agree.
    but competitive under what rules? TKD rules ITF rules and so forth. The MMA guy will have less bouts but on a much more brutal and realistic scale. and your dojo/place. does pressure testing? in what sense. i suppose the best way to get my point across. is to state it like this. ok if TKD were pressure tested, say in a full contact bout against an MMA practictioner. and that TKD guy went in there using his full variety of kicks {which in his many bouts were restricted to "the red dot area"
    { torso} meaning he more than likely dosen't know how to set up low kick combos. kick out the knee. and so forth} how long do you think he could keep it up before he wound up on the ground in a kneebar or ankle lock realizing that he no longer owns that leg?
  13. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    I agree if someone who had purely studied TKD sparred/fought a person with knowledge of grappling and was locked into a grappling range then they would probably lose.

    However just because the competition side of TKD has illegal target areas does not mean that we never work on none competition techniques. In my experince the people who study TKD do it for several reasons, I enjoy competitions but it is not the only reason that we practise and we work on all height ranges, as well as clinch range fighting.

    Saying that TKD can't kick low becuase they don't do it in comp i slike saying that MMA people can't punch as certain rules don't allow closed fist attacks (not sure what that rule set is), its just a nonesensical statement.
  14. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    i said more than likely becuase yes i do know that lots of people do train ralistically. but you guys really do clinch work at a TKD dojo? wow. thats cool, and rare.
  15. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    and as far as the MMA/TKD guy thing. even take away the grappling aspect {which is like 90%, haha} and he still get beat, bad. trying to throw the over extravegant kicks,
    {butterfly slying side kick. jumping spinning back kick} {granted i'll give you that butterfly might work once} when the MMA guy got past his kicking range and started throwing straight knees and some bows its as good as over.
  16. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    Yeah not loads but enough to know the basics, and our instructors old training partner takes a lesson every so often and he makes us work on close in fighting all the time, and take downs etc.

    I know TKD gets a bad rep and I admit many schols are probably a bit naff. I'm in the TAGB and as it is a national level organisation it gives you access to loads of instructors who have different views on things.

    So we get to train with international level ITF sparrers and Olympic WTF sparrers, as well as an instructor who enters his good sparrers in KB and MT tournements, an ex MT instructor. Instructoirs will sometimes bring in instructors from other style to give us different viewpoints. My club instructor has also studied akido, judo and karate. So we are not as blinkered as many people think.
  17. CobraMaximus

    CobraMaximus Banned Banned

    Its all about the person who uses the techniques and the techniques they know and can use. Someone at my class who is brown belt could proabbly match a BB if they were good
  18. Goju

    Goju Yellow Belt

    Everybody thinks that tkd people are easy to beat because of theyre high snapping or spinning/jumping kicks, but would any of you tkd people really use these in a fight? I would think you would stick with the basics like front and roundhouse kicks with punches, I could be wrong though.
  19. munkiejunkie

    munkiejunkie sanity's requiem

    because people are idiots.
  20. MarioBro

    MarioBro Banned Banned

    Yes, you are correct...and if a TKDer tried to get fancy with an MMAer, he would be dropped quickly in most cases.

    As a TKDer I hate to say that MMA has the advantage over TKD, but I am afraid it does. It tends to cover the reality of gravity more and will even try to utilize it. TKD generally works best when on your feet. In a small space, it may be very hard to stay on your feet. So again, any fault goes to the TKDer (or other MA) that does not fill the holes in his style. And if you fill the holes, then you are in effect an MMAer (thus the word 'mixed').

    Now, all of the above assumes that you are taking TKD in order to fight professionaly in an MMA environment, which chances are most TKDers are not. TKDers in general (in my opinion...do not shoot me) are not into it with thoughts of fighting in an octagonal enclosed ring, and therefore the whole argument is moot and I must close with 'who really cares?'.

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