I was talking to a girl today that claimed to be atheist, and it really got me thinking of my own religious thoughts. I believe in God, although I don’t' necessarily believe in Christianity or any other organized religion. But I most certainly do believe in some sort of original creator, as I like to call it. Here's why. My argument is not overly elaborate, nor is it extensive. On the bright side though that means this won't be too terribly long a read. My argument is simply there is far too much order in existence to possibly argue something didn't create it. Everything falls perfectly in order. There are laws of physics, everything in nature follows geometric rules and principles, mathematics are absolute and applicable to true events. These are just examples. In short, I think science is perfect proof that there is a God. Everything seems so artificial if you think about it really. So much order, so many rules. It's not spontaneous. It's all so well laid out, so perfect. It just seems like someone created all of this, like it's all man made. I personally don't see how anyone can claim atheism, unless they simply don't take a look at how many foundations of order there are in the universe. If you do... I think it seems apparent. But I'm not going to criticize those that disagree. I am also fairly convinced, although to a lesser degree, that this original creator made us unique. We are able to discern and dissect what all these laws of nature are. That must mean something. Personally, I think that we are in a metaphoric sense the children of this creator. That would also lead me to believe in some sort of sense of soul, and possibly something after this. Although perhaps not on the afterlife bit. So anyway, that was a lot longer than what I expected it to be. But what do you think of my thoughts? Does anyone agree? Does anyone have any reasons to disagree? Tell me what you think.
Why is it that people are religious, but merely claim to be atheists? It's as though you think they're doing it just to shine you on. Nevermind. Just something that popped into my head. That aside, this is what is typically called the teleological proof for the existence of God and was first made famous in St. Thomas Aquinas' long time bestseller: Summa Theologiae (although he didn't completely invent it). Should be required reading for anyone, Xtian or atheist alike. Personally, if you're really interested in reading a fascinating rebuttal to the teleological proof, in scientific terms that make sense, I would highly suggest for some great reading a book called The Blind Watchmaker. I was turned onto this book by my wife, who was studying biology and organic chem at the time. See, in an infinite universe, anything that is possible, regardless of how remote, is guaranteed to happen at least once. Because, even if the chances of something happening are 1 in 10 to the nth, as Jim Carrey said in Dumb and Dumber... "So, you're saying there's a chance." Yes. And in an infinite universe, that's all we need. So, everything is a result of those things that have previously occurred, building on previous success. So things start small and build. We have one small, chance occurrence that, when coupled with another minor happenstance result in a rather insignificant coincidence. In this infinite universe of ours, this coincidence will occur over and over again until a third random factor occurs to give rise to yet another link on the chain. Ah... just read the book. He's much smarter than I.
But isn't it possible that if we apply the logic of Occam's Razor (when faced with two explanations, choose the simplest) that we actually discover that the simplest answer for the existence of the Universe is that there is a God who either 1) made the universe (creationist view) or 2) is the universe / its ongoing creation (more Daoist / animist view). The view that allows for a God at least gives us some sense of why the universe exists and not just how. I'd say "keep the faith!" even if it is only to deify and revere the benevolent aspect of the universe. This is one of the most convincing arguments for the existence of God I've heard in a while: Click on Sir Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi - 29 min interview at this link - you can listen to it or read it. As he says -
So your saying if you do 2-1 an infinint number of times it will eventually be something other than 1? Or if you constantly do an action you will eventually NOT get an equal reaction? I don't follow. When you say "anything is possible" I think your right but wrong. Anything is possible, with the right variables. But the variables have to line up exactly for it to work the way it is. But that's not really what I was getting at anyway. And yes... I do think a lot of people claiming to be atheist are doing it simply out of spite. Not all, maybe not a majority, but quite a few.
But we don't live in an infinite universe . I believe they think we are in this bubble like thing ya' know, and that there are other universes or whatnot in other bubble like things or something like that. Things are very finite. Hsoj - Your explanation was a very brief, lack to do justice of a part of my own belief in God. Now you have to throw in the human and spiritual aspects and representations behind the ideas of it all then we can agree entirely. Have you looked at determinism at all?
Well, then the problem becomes one of definition. I mean, I'll grant you for the sake of argument that the simplest explanation is that God either made or IS the universe. My next question would be why YOUR God (or ANY particular God)? Why not the Giant Spaghetti Monster (yargggh!)? I would land on the side of IS, where God is equivalent to a persistent series of causes and effects happening at random. On another tack, Occam's razor really only leans toward a God, if you presume a need for a reason... if you presume there must be a "why". The simplest answer really is that there isn't a reason at all. There's no why, only a how. I said nothing of the sort, because 2-1, at least to my meager math skills, will NEVER be other than 1. I was saying that where something is possible, regardless of how infinitely improbable, in an infinite universe it will still occur an infinite number of times. I'm not saying anything is possible (honestly, I wouldn't know... could be, but I wasn't saying it). I was saying that where something IS possible, it will have occurred. Obviously, life is possible. We're proof. In a universe this size, it was BOUND to happen at least once. This I find more interesting than the rest. Why do you think this is so? What has led you to believe that most atheists claim atheism out of spite? Who are they spiting? Why do you suppose?
Don't confuse me with math! I was using infinite as a shorthand to get to a point. If I have a coin and I am determined to flip that coin until I get a heads and I have both the means and the motivation to do so, the odds become irrelevant.
I definately see what you are coming from as there are many athiests who do seem to spite Xtians and the like, but I don't think their athiesm stems from the spite. The opposite most likely occurs.
My main problem regarding the idea of an intelligent designer of mankind and the universe.... there are some parts that don't seem to be intelligently designed. For example: Planets. Why would an intelligent designer create a huge number of planets, and then make the vast majority of them uninhabitable for life? Isn't that kind of a waste? Acne. Is that really necessary? How do annoying greasy little pustules spontaneously forming on your face help with anything? If God made us in his image, does he too suffer from skin problems? Arthritis. Again, really just kind of annoying. Wouldn't an all powerful God make us humans with more durable joints? Or does God also have problems with his knees in his old age? These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I gave it greater mentation I could think of more important places to improve man and the universe.
If you need more serious things there's mental illness, natural disasters, AIDS, cancer, and "Gigli."
Not quite true Sparkle we don't actually know yet whether the universe is infinite or finite. Finite is I believe 'generally' the more accepted position but I've seen well established arguments for an infinite universe as well. Anyhow in regards to the appearence of design meaning something must have been created by a God I'm afraid I don't see that the conclusion follows. The theory of evolution has already provided thousands of examples of how things that seem too complex to have been anything but creations/designs of a divine hand are actually the result of a natural process. Clearly then design does not need an 'anthropomorphized designer'. And on top of this we are left with the inherent contradiction of this argument... i.e. if the hypothetical and necessarily incredibly complex God does not a designer to create it why should everything else?
I think the reasons and explanations as to how and why we are here/got here, are far beyond the sphere of human understanding. Everything we think of is from our own little timeframe of human experience. I think its something our minds couldnt possibly even imagine. I hope when we die from this life we will, for what ever reason become more enlightened.
This creature is starting to become a very predictable cliche. Flying spaghetti monsters make no sense at all.
As much or as little sense as any other creator story invented to explain something beyond our immediate understanding.
As cliched as 'God did it' perhaps? I think the point that it doesn't explain anything was actually the point of the flying spaghetti monster though this is coming from a non-believer of course who has never felt the touch of his noodly appendage.
Hence within the human mind we always have to have a answer for something, a systematic way of understanding things, that is why i believe it is beyond our imagination as to how and why we are here.
How old is the book you pulled that from Bear It seems there are but 2 choices for The One Deal God Emanation Result(tm) - or TODGER to Give it its one true name.. The designer or The design. To coin the odd phrase. At the least I'm told the latter is the created that doesn't require a creator. I guess it's a no brainer, or isn't it? .. fudged if I know, but there's this Turkish wierdo in the chip shop who swears blind he's Elvis.
