I'm in England, my English is fine, i see your Arkansian dialect must differ. I read my post as i wrote it, then re-read it just to humour you. Still don't see your point. I was fairly clear IMO in explaining that MA started as a form of exercise (similar to present day yoga) coming from India, no doubt via Tibet into China. These exercises were used to gain a fitness level sufficient to meditate properly. Later they were developed as a form of SD, but not losing any of their spirituality. The okinowan karate link was a reference to nunchuka's origin: as a farming tool in rice fields, which was relevant to the point i was making. I am surprised an aikidoka views MA as non spiritual, but as having fighting as its primary goal, no, quit aikido now, you really don't get it. http://www.taoistarts.net/martial.html If you get chance read the preface of William Durbin's Mastering Kempo ISBN 0 7360 0350 9, It has a very good description of the difference between fighting arts and martial arts. http://www.tibetankungfu.com/simhanada_ashtanga_yoga_the_lion's_roar_8_octave.htm also look at the fighting art vajramushti (diamond fist) taught to the kshatriya warrior cast of India, as taught to Boddidharma, and look at chan/zen meditation, and it's relevance to Shih Pa Lo Han Sho (18 hands of an enlightened man) look at wu, the wute (peacuful virtue) wu kanji in Japanese is bu (now translated as 'Martial', In reality it is 'To stop violence') 'te' is spoken 'toku' in Japan, so 'Wute' = 'Botuku', hence the origins of Wu Shu and Bujutsu. Combining fighting skill with religous virtue commonly known now as Shaolinssu Chuanfa or Shorinji kempo. This is the movement in which we (MAists) seek stillness, while meditation is the stillness in which we seek movement. The spiritual, medatative mind you call the 'Art' side of MA, is what makes them MA and not FA (Fighting arts) which is what you call the 'Martial' side of MA. Without an equal amount of both you are practicing either a religion or FA. It's all a Yin Yang thang
OBCT, Your revisionist history is entertaining, but if you read the writings of folks like Donn Draeger and Robert Smith (two fellows and friends that wrote in detail about many arts practiced across Asia), you'll see that the Asian martial arts were indeed developed for fighting. The Taiji and Xingyi internal schools represents/ed (depending on where you study) some of the more sophisticated empty-handed schools of boxing. The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, Shinto Muso-ryu, Toda-ha Buko ryu and Yagyu Shinkage ryu represent some of the older and more comprehensive methods of samurai bujutsu. The Indonesian systems of silat and poekalan were assuredly designed to train lethal combatives. Your assessment "that MA started as a form of exercise (similar to present day yoga) coming from India, no doubt via Tibet into China. These exercises were used to gain a fitness level sufficient to meditate properly." I find to be equal parts dubious and amusing. I also find myself curious as to where you developed this idea and whom it was that told it to you. It seems so out of context from what I've gathered from the folks I've trained with and under that I can't help but just smile goofily as I reread your post and write my reply. As for aikido and spirituality, from the folks I've talked with that trained with Ueshiba's contemporaries and uchideshi, it seemed that he was quiet spiritual, but not in the often-westernized sense that seems to be transferred on him. I do also find funny that you recommend anyone "quit aikido now, you really don't get it". Such a statement veers dangerously close to an assumption that you in fact do "get it", which automatically enters you as a candidate for repeated bashings from a virtual shovel. Carry on, good sir, I like being entertained.
my main point is that people were codifying and practicing methods of combat in parts of the world other than southeast asia and surrounding islands. the term "martial art" is a general description of methods of fighting. ergo, "martial art" as a term is not unequivocally southeast asian. as regards to spirituality in aikido, i have an issue of budo international with an interview of Yamada Sensei. to paraphrase his ideas, aikido has become cluttered with Sensei worship and overemphasis on esoteric, ethereal concepts. so...take that how you will.
I hope that clarifies my opinoin, Backed up by historical evidence and researched fact. "Fighting arts are designed to defeat an enemy, usually with the idea of killing him. As sporting events Fighting arts were brutal, ending in severe injury or death of one of the participants. Martial arts were not about killing or competition, but about survival and harmony. In ancient times martial arts competitions like those we see today did not exist. Instead Martial arets used methods of training that required harmonious interaction of training partners to achieve the greatest development of skill. The ultimate goal of a martial arts training was to survive conflict, without fighting when possible. When conflict was unavoidable the practitioner did no more than necessary to end a confrontation. This is the heart of kempo, the original martial art." William Durbin book as approved by Bill Wallace extract from preface of 'Mastering KEMPO' Entering into a competition you may be using the training from your MA, but your not following the thousands of years old principles or philosophy of using MA for self defence at the last resort, or as a form of exercise for body soul (spirit, chi, ki whatever) and mind, in effect you are now doing a FA. By calling it a MA, you devalue and show a great disrespect for thousands of years of tradition, exploit religions beliefs (buddhism, taoist,shinto etc) and show a complete lack of gratitude for those who have come before you in your style. learning MA is not a right, it is a prestigous honour. MA are not to be used for meaningless fighting outside a dojo, thats what sports and FA are for. as to seeing if a style works in a real fight situation, go to a full contact dojo/kwoon/school
http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/rookies/histovervew.asp read, then argue. I can bring up as many sources as you like. You don't seem to realise the difference between FA and MA. http://www.koryubooks.com/library/rsmith1.html You trust a source called 'martial musings' ?
Granted coded fighting arts systems FA were created as far back as the bronze axes found to cover most of mesopatamia, probably even earlier. African cave paintings have oft been disputed as to whether or not men are dancing with stixks or in a fighting ritual, we are pack animals after all and there must have been some way of choosing an alpha, nontheless these are fighting arts. MA started as a translation of the kanji Wu-Te (peacuful virtue)[a combat method to stop vilence] in chinese, which was similar to the previous FA except with its religoius core centered on 'stopping violence', not to 'win the fight' (which is where the differnce lies) The kanji Wu is Bu in Japanese. (peacuful virtue)[a combat method to stop vilence] The kanji Te is Toku in Japanese. (To stop violence) WuTe = Botuke (peaceful virtue to stop violence) As westerners attempted to translate Asiatic languages into their native tongues, The Te/Toku kanji lost its meaning as ('to stop violence' and was generalised as 'martial') which is where the confusion lies. FA and MA are not the same. As to aikido and philosophy: http://www.fightauthority.com/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=4 In its very nature it is non violent, and non competitive
You're citing Black Belt magazine as your source for history and you're picking on mine? Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha (infinity) I was referring to the earlier writings of Donn Draeger and Robert Smith. What they wrote together and separately in provided many an introduction to arts that few had heard of at the time. It also went some way towards dispelling the 'Bodhidarma brought pre-Billy Blanksified Tae Bo from India to the Shaolin, which gave birth to every other martial art' myth. I think 'Martial Musings' is at best entertaining and anectdotal and at it's worst, exemplifies some mean-spirited cirmudgeonry. Also, try asking me who I train under in jodo, please . . . . please ? (Hint: Your second link is a source of information is infinitely more reputable than Black Belt will ever be IMO)
Also, that article that describes aikido as "moving Zen" is missing the point, IMO. Ueshiba was into Shinto moreso than any Buddhism and as such, his ideas for aikido were to promote 'correct movement that was in accordance with the higher powers', despite what Black Belt Magazine's article on Zen and the Art of Aikidokery might say.
kempo: 6th century Bodidharma learns FA vajramushti(Vj) (diamond fist) in India, travels to china, sees buddhism there as materialistic, settles at shaolin, meditates for 9 years, teaches Chan (Zen) meditation, to unify towards 'oneness' shoalin monks not fit enough for chan, He simplifies Vj, now called Shih Pa Lo Han Sho (SPLHS) Trouble with bandits and animals near the woods, He shows monks combat application of (SPLHS) Explains combat must be Wu. Monks re name (SPLHS and chan together) as so: Dharma (The truth of Buddhism) and Mushti (fist) Which was in Bodidharma's native Indian language, in chinese; 'Dharma' is 'Ho' and 'Mushti' is 'Chuanfa' (true buddhist fist law) hence shoalinssu Chuanfa. The kanji for this in Japanes is pronounced Shorinji Kempo. Kempo was the first MA, not the first fighting system or FA.
http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/morihei.html Excerpted from the Introduction written by John Stevens for The Art of Peace. A collection of quotes from the teachings of Morihei Ueshiba, the Founder of Aikido. http://www.aikido-yoshinkai.org/AikidoFounder.htm Get back to me on that one.
Sure thing. First, where in either article do they directly support your assertions? As for John Stevens (not the red-headed American Idol competitor, obviously), he's coming to my dojo in June, so maybe I can ask him personally. I've already seen a couple of errors in the second link you've posted. Both articles seem to illustrate that Ueshiba became a man of peace when he founded aikido. This was never in dispute. Your entertaining historical assertions are. Now, if you want to have a prayer of making a reasonable argument, kindly support them with a bit more than links to general commentary and simplified history.
http://www.historyofmilitary.com/Comprehensive_Asian_Fighting_Arts_0870114360.html asian fighting (not martial) arts do you mean judo, or is jodo a derivation from kenjutsu? I assume its mostly jo fighting (way of the jo ?) or jodo shu http://www.jodo.org/about_js/history.html or judo as in: http://www.fightauthority.com/martial-arts-styles.php4?typeID=1&styleID=19 which is a sport technically, and an olympic one at that. http://worldjudo.org/Home.htm I am the first one to point out that shaolin was not the only route for MA, many Indian and Tibetan FA and religous beliefs combined in this time frame. I even posted a link earlier concerning tibetan systems : http://www.tibetankungfu.com/simhanada_ashtanga_yoga_the_lion's_roar_8_octave.htm The Shoalin however were the first to achieve a good mixture that reached epic mythology and created a legend reaching far and wide. http://www.fightauthority.com/martial-arts-styles.php4?typeID=1&styleID=3 They i repeat again WERE NOT THE FIRST TO HAVE A FIGHTING SYSTEM. HOWEVER THE TERM 'MARTIAL ART' IN ITS ORIGIN IS NOT THE SAME AS 'FIGHTING ART'. i have explained in my previous post how the term 'martial art' came about, and how it differs from fighting arts. At no point did i say MA were exclusive to shaolin. In fact the monks also taught some very basic WuTe to villagers, this Wu Shu has so many variants accross china that even the differing styles at different shaolin temples (honan province is the temple i refer to earlier) would not have encompassesed them all, but have influenced all in one way or another.
Correct!! And guess what? The distinction between "martial arts" and "fighting arts" is only referred to by a small number. It's hardly a universally acknowledged thing. Just like Donn Draeger's distinction between "jutsu" and "do" was looked at with some amusement by some Japanese, you're attempts to shoehorn MA & FA is again . . . amusing at best. Heck, even in Bob's 'Martial Musings', he admits that he can't stand either term and calls the whole mess 'combatives'. Tomato and tomato, potato and potato . . . Bob's yer uncle. The jodo I study is Shinto Muso-ryu, founded by Muso Gonnosuke, attributed in legend as being the only person to defeat Musashi in a duel. I train with Meik and Diane Skoss (founder of koryu.com [or koryubooks.com]). Meik was also one of Donn Draeger (he studied Shinto Muso-ryu as well)'s students. I train in judo also (although aikido is currently the primary unarmed system I'm studying). You seem to imply that being an Olympic sport somehow lessens it. Which I also find amusing, since some of the best koryu (classical Japanese Martial Arts) and gendai (modern JMA) exponents were also big time into judo (including Donn Draeger and Robert Smith -- wheel keeps coming 'round). And I'm saying that your sources for such revisionist history are not the most reliable. Especially since koryu bujutsu are widely considered in English to be 'Classical Martial Arts of Japan". As such, your argument regarding the shaolin myth as pseudo-definition for "martial arts" versus "fighting arts" loses credibility fast. So, to test your theory from the last paragraph, please explain in detail, how the WuTe influenced the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu.
spiritual benefit is a side effect of MA at best. and the most spiritual "masters" have all been trained extensively in fighting and spent years conditioning their body for fighting. the ability to use the least amount of force to end a confrontation or avoiding one all together is the direct result of knowing you could do serious harm to someone. meditation will not give you this skill. training and learning to fight is what gives you this skill. without the fighting aspect, martial arts are nothing really but art. even if the fighting aspect is a minimal one, it should still be a goal. i would say that there can be different levels of fighting, obviously, but it's still fighting. what you get out of it in terms of "oneness with the universe" is really dependent on you as an individual and not directly related to the art, martial or not. making a distinction between MA and FA is the equivalent of trying to chop down a tree with no axe, failing, and still calling yourself a lumberjack. the axe represents the fighting aspect.
spirituality is working towards oneness, making body mind and spirit work as one. meditation helps you to assimilate information you recieve into your concious mind, and process it into your sub concious mind. This is how a baby learns to walk, it copies its parents, then as it sleeps this 'new' information is stored into the subconcious, the baby now walks instinctively. In the same way that meditation helps you convert the techniques you learn in class to become instinct, this happens as you sleep aswell, just meditation is a far quicker method, giving you more time to build on muscle memory. "To know, is to do." Body conditioning is for health benifit, some of the best fighters are not overly concerned with fitness and body conditioning itself, they only bother if they feel it is necessary to be a more efficient fighter. As to MA for fighting, No. MA are about stopping a fight, and if possible avoiding the fight in the first place, the combat side of MA is a very last resort, some would even say that "if you have to resort to violence, you have already lost" If you want to fight, learn FA. If you are looking to improve as a being learn MA. Why you seem to feel that MA is mostly fighting and that the art is now redundant is confusing, Every martial art has internal/external, yin/yang otherwise it is either a religous artform, or FA. to be MA it has to have both. You shouldn't see or treat mind, body and spirit as seperate, but as one. Otherwise you can never really know who you are, where your strengths are or your weaknesses. And you could never improve. Bear in mind spirit/soul also refers to chi/ki, and i fail to see how you could use aikido without ki, and your mind in any situation. The body on its own is nothing, it needs the mind. Body and mind can fight, like in FA add spirituality (Ki, Chi, energy, spirit, soul, aura whatever name you give it) and you are now using your whole being, in union, as in MA
BuddWu Te - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu. (Otake Sensei, Shihan of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu uses an antique tachi blade, but with a katana tsuka, for Iaijutsu.) http://www.tenguryu.be/US/HistoryUS.htm http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000043.html http://www.satoryuninjutsu.com/TSKSRhistory.html http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/Chin.html My guess is that the tiger and pheonix shoalin temple of Wutang near the border of Korea are the most likely for this. If we accept Ninjitsu as being influenced by Chinese Wu Shu. http://aikidojo.nl/historyinenglish.html looking at the weaponry, seems fairly likely. http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/shuriken/schools.htm http://www.tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/Styles/Japanese.htm As a student I would have thought you would know all thiis. I'm quite happy to say that Judo being a sport does not lesson it at all. It's great fun just IMO not technicaly a MA, it's a sport with added SD benifits, sorry if it sounded that way. http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm The difference between MA,FA,Sport and SD is not just a convoluted somantic waffling pointless argument. The differences are so large its hard to believe that they can be confused. Truly I can tell you, honestly: MA are not for fighting, FA are. MA are not for competition, Sports are. MA are not to feel safer walking home at night, SD is. Unfortunatly, collectively these are usually all clumped under the term MA. Like clumping marathon running, jogging in the park sprinting and cross country running all under the term running. Doesn't make them all the same thing. Budd, can you bavk your posts up with any kind of wvidence other than koryubooks ? BTW http://www.koryubooks.com/library/koryubudo.html Wu (chinese origin) translating as Bu (in Japanese from Chinese Wu 'peaceful virtue') Bu Jutsu peaceful virtue art, could quite easily become gentle art (jiu jitsu) Remember we are dealing with kanji here, not the same structure as european languages at all.
Easy folks. Looks like a goood discussion worthy of it's own thread. Just remember, it's about keepin the interest of those who need to read it most!
Well OBCT if this is your take on thing with FA, Sports etc. What is MA for???? Is it just a dance to look pretty as dancing is for that? Also I think you might want to update us as to what art you do and who you train with etc.
