who has studied Ninjutsu?

Dean Winchester posted

you make it sound like I spent two weeks here and a week there, when in fact I spent years in the Bujinkan when it was the EBNS and then carried on with my teacher at the time, then 6 years in Genbukan.

 

Tell that to Bas RUtten.

But again it depends on your aims, if you want to learn how to fight, standing in front on someone who is hitting you is the best method.

If you want to learn a traditional Japanese art, for all the History, the Culture etc. Go to Japan and Hatsumi might be your man.

 

Yet you achieved so little both in rank terms and going on your videos it seems in physical understanding, then of course we have some of your posts here, your ridiculous statements on Katori for example showing how little you understood what was being shown.

So Gary next time you try to have a pop just keep in mind some of the nonsense surrounding you.

Try to paint me in a bad light but I'm honest and open about my training, I'm not teaching anybody or making any questionable claims, I study and that's it.
I'm learning the language, culture and history of my chosen arts and have pretty much daily contact about my studies with my teachers.

On top of that I would hope my posts speak for themselves, as yours undoubtedly do.

Feel free to have another go Gary, if it makes you feel better.

 

Mark Spada posted

Honestly Mark how many people have actually trained with Hatsumi in the way that you mean i.e. physical training exchanging techniques with hatsumi, after which you both wipe the sweat from your brows before retiring to the showers.

What actually happens is that Hatsumi turns up shows a few things, people copy, thats it.

But it doesnt stop websites like these

http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/bujinkan/hatsumi.htm

Even the winjutsu links says "Visit this website to train with dr Hatsumi"

and Van Donks says "Whether you want to go to Japan to train with Soke
Hatsumi,"

In fact are you aware of how many websites out there are written by people who claim to have trained with Dr Hatsumi when all he has done is show a few things.

Its a general term Mark, get over it.

No I too have stood in a room with Dr Hatsumi demonstrating things which other people in the Bujinkan also call training.

 

Gary,

So, basically you are saying that if other people lie by misrepresenting themselves on their web sites, then it's perfectly acceptable for you to do it.

And that if other people stand in a room with Hatsumi sensei and claim that they are training with him, then it's perfectly acceptable for you to do that as well.

Okay.

Thanks for clearing that up.


- Mark Spada

 

Standing in front of someone who is hitting you is the best method only for learning how to stand in front of someone who is hitting you.

It is entirely possible to learn a traditional Japanese art outside of Japan. Many people do this. Every day. For real. True story.


- Mark Spada

 

Dean Winchester posted

Rank isnt everything as we can see with people getting huge rnks in the Bujinkan and being cringeworthy.

Physical understanding of what dean. If its Bujinkan well as i explained on the first page of that thread where my youtube clip was posted I explained that it was not Bujinkan. Here let me show you again.

As I explained it was what we do, and it was a demonstration thats all. and to be honest some of the feedback I got wasnt that bad.

Your opinion

Well it seems it does you, as you are the one thats is so happpy to keep attacking me.

 

Mark Spada posted

Who says they are lying. Only by your sense of the words "Train with"

 

Gary I was making general comments using often seen examples of what I was on about. You are the one who started getting all arsey. If you see yourself in those examples I posted then I think we've found the real issue haven't we?

No rank isn't everything but that doesn't take away from the fact that for all your "20 odd" years training you have very little to show in this regard.

As for physical understanding well like I said before sometimes things are just bad. As an example I seem to recall a video of you dealing with two "swordsmen" it had you dealing with one whilst completely ignoring the threat posed by the other and his position relative to yours, like I said somethings are just wrong.

Your Katori comments yes my opinion and the opinion of a number of people whose knowledge and experience in relevant areas far outweighs both of us. It was also explained to you at length why you were wrong. So not just my opinion.

 

Sorry, Gary, but no. Not his opinion. As I went through with you via PM recently, you were completely off base there. I actually gave you the application for the beginning of Itsutsu no Tachi to demonstrate to you that your ideas were incorrect, regardless of what you thought you saw. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of actually knowing what is going on, and if you don't know, it's often best to keep quiet about it. Your ideas of contrasting both Katori and Kukishin as one being more "battlefield" than the other was way off, as you missed the point of both. Sorry.

 

So you really think this is how warriors on the battlefields of Japan fought with swords?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlW-dGIPg-o&feature=player_embedded#!

Long drawn out sequences of combat?

This is more like how I believe battles were fought, straight to the point with no messins around

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ2fwor6-L4&feature=related"]YouTube - Jinenkan Dojo Gent Demo (Part 2/2)[/ame]

Garth

 

Gary, you know I can't post PM's here, but you said, in essence that you have spoken with European Battlefield re-enactors, who told you that sometimes battlefield arts turn into dueling ones, which is not only beside the point with Katori (as you have been told), it is anathema to their ideals and approach (changing that which is True and Correctly Transmitted From Heaven - Tenshinsho Den). You pointed to a lack of sword wounds (when we all know that swords were a minor battlefield weapon at best, so what did you expect), then tied in with something about laws changing after Ieyasu and after 1886 (?) leading to a change in the curriculum. Again, that shows a lack of understanding of the ideals of Katori Shinto Ryu. Your point wasn't missed, it was missing.

 

That's was the whole point if I recall Gary.

You saw a clip and made a judgement without actually understanding what it was you were looking at or the context or purpose.

It's a bit daft anyone arguing over what that school is or isn't or what it does as none of us are members but your comments did show you lack a basic understanding of how some of these things function and approach training.

Again this was explained at length last time and is off topic.

The only reason I mentioned it was by way of example.

 

Hmm, when I answered, this post just read:

Okay, I'll bite.

No, that is not how battles happened on the battlefield of old Japan. For one thing, swords were a rarity (hadn't I just said that?). For another, you are not looking at re-enactors, you are looking at martial artists employing a training device, in this case the Kata of the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu. The kata are long for numerous reasons, all of which have been explained at length to you before, but you refuse to acknowledge. If you think a kata is like a battle preserved in stone, you have once again missed the entire point of what a kata is, let alone what the kata of the Katori Shinto Ryu are for, and the reasons for them to be the way they are.

 

Let's just ignore anything that includes tanren from now on as well, as it obviously wouldn't have been done that way of "Teh B4ttlefi3ld"

 

Hmm, okay, added another clip and another comment? Okay, let's have some fun.

Let's see, the Kukishin Biken shown here is actually closer to a duelling system (no running at each other, both combatants coming together to find an opening, many targets not ideal for armoured combat, cutting actions rather than getting past armour, and so on.... really, if you want to see realistic dueling swordsmanship, check out a Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu class! You'll find that there's exactly what you're describing here in that system, and the techniques for that art are said to have come directly from Musashi's actual life [and death!] duels!). Always wondered, though, why you'd attack someone when they have their sword pointed towards your throat as in the first kata.... oh, well, just me, I suppose!

But again, Gary, this is a training device, again a Kata form, this time from the Kukishin Ryu rather than the Katori Shinto Ryu. They both approach things rather differently, but that doesn't make either of them wrong. If you think that one negates the other, you've really missed not only the point, but the length and handle as well!

 

Chris Parker posted

You seem to be agreeing with me here, as I posted way back in the original thread in my second post on the subject...

I mentioned this point nearly two years ago

and

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84629&highlight=katori&page=6

I understand its a device Chris which is my point how you cant compare the device to battlefield combat which is why it seems more like duelling.

I understand that chris, my point is again that this approach seems to be more like duelling that true battlefield combat.

Which is why I posted from what Karl Friday said

which is what we see in the Katori Shinto Ryu clip, and yes I agree its a training device, although I have my doubts in how much it has been altered away from the battlefield methods and not become more duelling methods for the edo period.

 

Chris Parker posted

is it?

I think Dr Hatsumi mentions this in his ken tachi dvd. IIRC he says one would not be in that posture but assumes the posture as the attacker comes in, Again IIRC (without watching the DVD) he has his hands to the sides in an open approach and as the uke attacks he assumes seigan quickly and strikes.

yes I just said that kukishin ryu is more simailar to battlefield method.

when did I say either was wrong?

 

Bit by bit.

The Katori Shinto Ryu prides itself on not having changed it's curriculum since the Founder, Iizasa Choisai Ienao, was given a scroll with the secrets to martial arts and swordsmanship by the Deity of the Katori Jingu in the 15th Century. They have lost a few sections, but steadfastly refuse to change that which they maintain. Their rules, including not being affiliated with any particular Lord or faction, and others were designed to maintain this purity of an art bestowed by Heaven. If you think it comes from a later period then you don't get what you're looking at.

The primary battlefield weapons of the Sengoku Jidai were spears and naginata, with mounted archery coming up second. It was the primary weapon in earlier times.

You are ignoring why the sword was used in training (and it was not for combative excellence), just because you don't see the reason doesn't mean it isn't there. Many arts centred around the sword even though it was a less-likely weapon to need to use.

You may get that it's a device, but you don't get what that device is, or what it's intending to do. And really, the kata of Katori Shinto Ryu (or any other Ryu, for that matter, are kata, not battlefield combat or duelling. But, again for the record, the Omote Tachijutsu of Katori Shinto Ryu are set up around fighting in armour against armour clad opponents as part of the teaching device, the Gogyo no Tachi are suhada combat [unarmoured]).

Katori does not alter. It is Tenshinsho Den. That is one of the reasons it has been preserved and survived as long as it has. That is one of the central tennets and core ideals of the Ryu. If you have missed this point, you may want to get it here.