Which principles and techniques have worked best for you?

That is not at all what a good Judoka fighting according to the physical principles of Judo would do - why would you even think that?

Do you think that tai sabaki for the purposes of evasion is exclusively a characteristic of Aikido?

Obviously not. In this case it is Aikido because you are an Aikidoka, and for no other reason.

Also, you never really answered why you called jujigatame and ude garami jujutsu, while using their Judo names.

 

Personaly I have found judoka to have excellent movement and retention of balance.

As has been stated taisabaki is common to both arts. The aproach of the judoka during competition where the intent of both is to take hold is quite different to that used in self defence situation.

regards koyo

 

And no, I do not think that the principle of evasion to strikes are unique to aikido, but i think the personal way that aikido does it is fairly different in form and structure. Principles of evasion in other arts have their own method of evasion which may be similar, or even different, such as boxing or even karate, particularly the Sabaki method which comes to mind, which I've been shown a lot of. I simply made an example, perhaps too simple and maybe even a bad one, but no need to take it too literally, for I never meant to imply that Judo has bad tactics when it comes to moving attacks.

As for the names, I came to aikido first and jujutsu after. I never said though, that both techniques belonged to jujutsu. I simply recognise due to popular nomenclature in japanese martial arts circles that the technique is jujiwhatever, and I do not recall the jujutsu nomenclature. It is as simple as that. In the end it's just a name, and when you think about it, something like ude-garami is just arm-turning, nothing special. I mean, something like O-soto-gari was originally called in the jujutsu records gyaku-gama, but most people don't recognise it by that name.

For the record, I checked with my instructor if he learned judo at any point, and he said no. Just the martial arts that I have mentioned. So the honest answer why I call it by "judo" terms is just, well, me. And I learned them while I did jujutsu. Perhaps if it will clear things up, Archibald can come and correct me on the terms used in Tsutsumi Ryu, as he is well informed of the style and it's method of nomenclature of techniques. Sorry mate, didn't mean to offend.

 

God old terminology!!! There were two mappers who got into such a tussle about terminology that they got banned from the forum. Their other posts had been very informative up until that point.

Let's just call it budo.

regards koyo

 

Haha, you didn't offend me - I'm sorry if I came off that way.

I sort of honed in on the jujutsu comment because I've heard some Aikidoka refer to techniques that are especially aggressive or particularly designed to cause damage as jujutsu, which seems appropriate as the early koryu jujutsu was not exactly conciliatory in its approach and of course jujigatame and ude garami are designed specifically to damage joints or threaten them with damage. Obviously ude hishigi jujigatame is a descriptive term and as such can be used in any context which refers to the action, so I was really just curious as to the attitude with which the term jujutsu was used.

If I remember Koyo sensei referred to these sorts of techniques as Ara waza (not necessarily katame waza such as jujigatame, but techniques of a 'severe' nature).

Terminology can be pesky, but in some cases (not really here) I think its important to be specific. One example is MMA and BJJ practitioners calling all groundwork "jiu-jitsu", which is fine if you know what they mean (generally they learned their groundwork from BJJ so the association is natural), but the use of that term spreads ignorance about what Jujutsu really is, as well as the origins of the groundwork they're familiar with. Again, I don't think that applies to your use of Judo terminology, as the terms are just descriptive and as such can be conveniently used wherever they are found. (I've often heard BJJ guys use Judo terms for throws in particular, which I see nothing wrong with even though they didn't learn them in Judo)

Again, I'm sorry if I came off a bit aggressively, I'll try to work on that

 

Not at all. As I said, I'm a bit of a mess pot, because I come from a school that offers koryu jujutsu and an aikido style that has judo as part of it's technical basis. You will often find me mixing terms, please ask for clarification any time. I'm sorry if I accused you of being aggressive, I didn't think that really, but I tend to use the easiest nomenclature that comes to my head first, and I'm often lost on how to explain it at times.

I perfectly understand your perspective on an aikidoka using the term jujutsu. I just wish that more of them actually DID jujutsu, to appreciate how it is practiced now. TO be honest, I myself, didn't even appreciate aikido as much as I did now until I did Jujutsu.

Yeah terminology. "Ude Garami" and "Kimura" eh? Sorry mate, I'll stop, lol.

 

What I put in bold text above exactly matches the Aikido Sensei I trained under. But the context is not something I gather you approve of.

The context was whenever I tried to resist or counter something in Aikido class, she would apply a much more "nasty" variation of the technique and she called that jujutsu. She did not make it up, she was taught these by her instructor as jujutsu, so she is giving credit where credit is due. It may have been confusing or inaccurate, I don't know, but it made perfect sense to us. I had already been a karate black belt with more then ten years and my instinct was to counter as well as a high tolerance to pain. She would limit my ability to ukemi because she knew I could take it.

What made this fit into our Aikido training was that it used a progressive system from minimum necessary force to maximum force. Safer techniques could be used up until the point when something more dangerous needed to be applied. The majority of the class never was taught these variations until they reached black belt because they had been trained to take the ukemi, but at more experienced levels they were learning how to counter as part of ukemi and then jujutsu came into training.

We also had a different view of Judo. From karate, Judo was a "soft" art, but in our Aikido, Judo was a "hard" art because it utilized grabs. So when we grabbed on to each other to apply technique, that was Judo.

I think my old Aikido school was exactly the kind that would give you a headache...

 

I think that the problem arises when the aikidoka becomes comfortable in the training . The training itself becomes a habit.

There are henka waza that is flowing from one technique immediately into another when meating resistance often an atemi will be used to facilitate the next technique.

There are kaeshe waza turning the principle against the one attempting to apply it.

There is also weapons training in sword and stick to better understand empty hand principles.

And there are ara waza severe techniques for self defence. And yet I have seen full seminars which consisted of simply repeating the techniques with no great emphasis on truly understanding the principles.

Do NOT stand still move on in your study and constantly challenge yourself.

Below an empty hand attempt to immobilise my sword arm is countered by irrimi nage and sword cut. Is this aikido, aiki ken or what? Whatever you do becomes whatever is your dominant art.No need for names.

regards koyo

 

Just to help this great thread along
When i worked hotels i used to "help out " on the door somtimes
There was a bouncer I used to be paired with and he said he did aikido years ago,
his footwork was just stunning, he moved like a cross between Ali and a ballroom dancer
if he need to hit anyone before putting a lock on(which were so quick i could never see what he did) he always used the elbow"smash" rather than punch-is this normal in aikido as i'm hope to start at an Iwama dojo in the New Year and just thought I'd ask

 

The reason for using an elbow strike can be twofold to protect the hand and to close with the opponent.The ara waza techniques are ment to "wash over" the opponent unbalancing and displacing him. These techniques are applied VERY quickly with the element of "surprise".

Good to hear it is an Iwama dojo as they also study sword and stick.Best of luck in your training.

regards koyo

 

Listen, listen!