Which principles and techniques have worked best for you?

Fist time I think I've posted in the Aikido forum... first time I've even stuck my head in here in a long time.

Basically, if you've ever used aikido in open sparring, self-defense, or so on, do you remember what techniques worked for you? Do you remember what the context was? What principles do you think are necessary for applying Aikido realistically?

Now please be kind and dumb it down a bit for a non-Aikidoka. Techniques, I can look up. Principles, you're going to have to hold my hand with.

 

I'm inclined to say all the basic techniques should work. The more fanciful and complex the technique the less likely it is you'll be able to apply it for real. But then again it's not the technique that should be applied in the real world but the principles that allow the technique to work.

Off the mat I've used tenchinage when someone decided to throw a right hook at me. Well it was actually more of a block (for lack of a better word) at the elbow and an atemi to the face that didn't stop until the guy was on the floor.

In the dojo kokyunage always seemed to be my natural choice in a free practice. The few times I've worked with other martial artists kotegaeshi seemed to work best.

 

The first principle, "do not get hit", has always worked best for me. Many times in sparring, students will seem like they are tired or something and just not seem to get it... After seeing this, often I'll bring out the training knives and let them spar at 1/2 to 3/4 speed. They almost immediately stop trading blows with each other (you don't trade blows with a knife), and actually start to duel each other. The first principle of do not get hit is then demonstrated, which leads to the next principles of aligning the body, entering, and attacking through a weak point. Enter triangularly (triangle), control circularly (circle), and finish strongly (square).

Two techniques I use the most in sparring, variations of Irimi-nage and variations of Ikkyo. The important part to remember is that these techniques are set up with atemi (striking) to first unbalance and/or stun the opponent.

 

SEN timing.
SEN slip or dodge his attack while striking to a weak point then apply a technique.
SEN NO SEN enter and cut his attack aside while striking to set up a technique.
SEN SEN NO SEN strike while he is uncertain confused afraid or talking.
Whatever strike or technique is apropriate to the moment.The most important principle being (balls) and triangular entry.
Surprise agression and sustain.

TAISABAKI major principle. Depend more on body evasion and alignment rather than holding ground.
Ist principle..do not get hit. 2nd principle...remember the Ist

regards koyo

triangular entry using irrimi nage

 

Taisabaki. Always. It's either Irimi or Okuri, entering or sliding. They get you off the centreline of the attack and put you in a better position for attack or at least bide you time as your partner needs to realign his attacks. It's all about going in, rather than jumping around like fairies.

If we are moving on to techniques, I have only been in two self defense situations which ended fast. One was aiki otoshi (like obi otoshi almost in judo), when I was put in a side headlock, and then hijikudaki (elbow smashing or equivalent of an armbar done standing with the body) from a thrust to the face.

Techniques in freefighting are far more varied. I have done harai goshi from a moving attack (I guess it makes a judo throw aikido if you do it against a strike), o-soto-gari, ko soto gake, ko-uchi and ko-soto-gari, are good ones against punches, and also o-uchi-gari, ko-soto-gari and hiza-guruma against kicks, especially roundhouses. They are the reaps that I find most useful. The only hand reap that worked for me was morote gari. Quite different from the judo one though.

Ippon seoinage, from roundhouse punches I've done. That's the only type of shoulder techniques I've done in sparring. I've never gotten morote or kata eri seoi nage. Kata guruma came out a couple of times when I've had my seoi nage attempts ruined.

For sutemi waza, tomoe nage, ude domoe, and ude makikomi sutemi waza all work well and often. One that works ALL the time is kubi domoe sutemi waza. I use my jujutsu to finish them off with jujigatame often or reverse ude-garami.

For hip throws, I've done recently two great harai goshi. Came out sweet. I've done the odd uchi mata, but not very often, it's not my best hip technique to pull off under pressure situations like free fighting.

Classic aikido locks I've done are yoko kotekudaki (side wrist lock or nikkyo) and also yuki chigai (sankyo).

I've yet to achieve any shihonage though. Shame though I like that technique, there are no opportunities at my school as it is one of the most looked out for techniques and one that is often countered by tori desparately not wanting to get thrown by it.

 

Taisabaki taisabaki taisabaki.

Correct body movements will not only take you offline of an attack or potential attack, but they will also put you ina position of advantage (usually this means behind your opponent).

This goes hand in hand with an attacking spirit - don't get caught moving backward. Koyo as always has stated these perfectly.

And I'd like to add that I'm the poor sod kensei is doing those techniques to...

 

And I'm the guy that Archibald does hachi mawashi to and also his speciality, the "Manberry Masher Knee Attack."

 

Thanks for the input. Just so I'm clear:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEo0wtZgYgQ"]YouTube - Mukai Sensei's Irimi Nage[/ame]

aikiwolf, I've seen this technique also refered to as Kokyunage. Are you refering to this or something else?

 

For a karateka ude uke age uke and gedan barai can all lead to aikido techniques. Particularly if the "blocks" are directed to a kuzushi (weak point of balance). However in competition most aikido techniques would be most difficult to apply since they are ment to control an agressor which is MOST difficult and a trained fighter even more.

Enten jizai is a good principle from aikido that many fighters from other martial arts can use. This dictates that attack and defence are one. Example do not bloch THEN strike. The evasion redirection or blocking of the attack must be made and in the same instant your own attack mounted.

Below a version of gedan barai that could leed to a lock on the arm however the deflection is accompanied by an attack to engage the other arm and there is the possibility of a technique on that arm also.

I have used all of the major principles in competition (cross training karate kendo and judo) however the "techniques" applied were more from my cross training in the respective arts.

regards koyo

 

callsignfuzzy,

Kokyunage is not one throwing technique, I describe it as a way to apply a throwing technique using technique and timing instead of strength and speed.

For instance, if I picked someone off the ground and slammed them, this is not Kokyunage because it is using my strength and leverage to make the throw. If I kicked their legs out from under them and they fell to the ground, this is also not Kokyunage.

However, if I squat down at just the right time into the legs of the opponent so that he flips over me and slams to the ground, that is Kokyunage to me. Also, in another example, if the opponent backs over my knee and trips to the ground, that is Koyunage because I only put my knee into the right place at the right time to cause them to trip over it.

The more knowledgeable folks can correct me if I'm not describing things correctly.

 

Hi rebel

You got it just about right. The irrimi nage in the video would best be called nagare (flowing) rather than kokyu nage because there is quite a bit of "contact" with the attacker. As you say kokyu nage depends upon timing distancing and unbalancing of a high degree therefore little contact is needed. However this is a very advanced technique to apply.

regards koyo

Difficult to see but this is kokyu nage.

 

Nikkyo seems to be one of the best moves from Aikido that I've used in self defense.

And ukemi is pretty useful too...

 

I managed to get a flying kani basami on a karateka today. Technique came out perfect, but I made him slam his head back into the mat. Looked pretty bad on video.

The session ended there, thank goodness he was alright.

Spar well, but spar carefully.

 

Performing a Judo throw in response to a moving attack does not make it Aikido. This kind of thing is seen all of the time in the Judo kata, and if an opportunity presented itself in a sparring environment a competent Judoka should certainly be able to take advantage of it.

However, I agree your use of Harai Goshi (and pretty much the entire Judo curriculum as intimated by the rest of your post) could be considered Aikido and not Judo. This is because you are an Aikidoka applying your knowledge of Aikido to a technique not taught in most curriculums.

Why do you call jujigatame and ude garami jujutsu? Assuredly they may be found in some koryu schools, but I sincerely doubt that is where you, or your instructor learned them. It seems far more likely that they were picked up from Judo (the fact that the Judo names are used is kind of a give-away).

Also - to keep kani basami safe in randori, why not simply go over the technique with your opponent and make sure they are aware of it? Even people with good ukemi sometimes fall badly when thrown with something they haven't often seen. Certainly keep using it - it's bad enough that it's been banned in Judo since somewhere in the 80s (injuries are often cited but politics seemed more likely).

 

Hi Freyr

I for one can see where the confusion may set in.All of the original aikido shihan under whom I trained were also very experienced judoka. Nakazono shihan in particular would "throw in" judo techniques during training sessions and would tend to speak of budo rather than use the term aikido.

Gozo shioda of yoshinkan was a judoka first as was Minoro Mochisuki of yoseikan aikido.
When one looks at the self defence training in judo many "aikido" techniques are there. In fact some of the early shihan said aikido is judo at a distance.

I was also told that "Aikido is just a word to describe O Sensei's budo."


regards koyo

Here I am "throwing in " O Uchi gari against resistance to ikkyo.

 

Yes, the terminology can certainly get very confusing.

I'll try to elaborate on what I intended to mean. An Aikidoka may learn and apply harai goshi, o soto gari, kani basami, hadaka jime, jujigatame, and whatever else he comes across and yet still correctly call what he is doing Aikido, so long as he is primarily drawing upon the principles taught to him through his Aikido training.

So in that photo, although o uchi gari is a Judo technique, I would stay that in using it you are still doing Aikido, rather than Judo. (Though judging by the angle at which the ikkyo is to be completed, the principle of the through would probably be close to uchi mata, but the idea is the same).

The situation may be more complicated than I see it (I don't have a very deep understanding of Aikido), but my point was primarily that Kensei's harai goshi was Aikido because Kensei is an Aikidoka, not because he applied it directly off a punch.

As I recall Tomiki-sensei was also a very high ranking Judoka, which may account for his fondness of the idea of randori and shiai in Aikido.

I rather like the idea of simply calling it all Budo and leaving it at that. If nothing else it should reduce headaches

That is a very interesting picture by the way. Thanks for trying to clear everything up Koyo-sensei.

 

I come from a judo background myself and without doubt it has kept my aikido true (resistance etc)
I have a number of friends who are high grades in judo and I insist that my students visit them. Always good to be brought back to earth.


regards koyo

 

I believe it is neither myself. Simply because if I just lumbered into grappling range taking all hits, grab him and perform harai goshi, it would be judo. If I used taisabaki to intercept or evade the strike that would be aikido. For sure that the closing of a distance is a aikido principle, while Kano gets a big honorable thanks in giving me the harai goshi as a tool to use.

Actually it is called a different name in jujutsu. And also, to my knowledge, my instructor only studied Yoseikan Aikido, Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujutsu and Pencak Silat from Java. I wouldn't be surprised if the names were the same anyway, as Tsutsumi Ryu has close ties with the beginnings of judo. Supposedly anyway. Many of the techniques while being the same, have different names. For instance, shihonage is called te-kubi-te-nage in Tsutsumi Ryu. Sankyo is also kote hineri or yuki chigai.

Actually, he knows it. I think it was the fact that I took him completely by surprise cause I came from a metre away.

I did some asking around, and I got a great explanation as to why it was banned. Thanks to CK.

 

Really quite difficult in the situation that I am in. I have both jujutsu and aikido influence at my school, plus the aikido style is Mochizuki's composite budo which includes judo. And the Judo Goshin Jutsu no Kata, as Freyr has mentioned, has techniques incorporated form aikido in it. It's one big fruit salad of budo to me.

I draw the line at stuff on the ground like jujigatame and reverse udegarami on the ground, simply because I have not thought of it in an aikido context yet. The only time I have really kept an aikido mindset on the ground, and perhaps the only thing that I keep in mind is the quick, safe and injury-free subjugation of my partner.

 

The reason the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu No Kata has a lot of Aiki based techniques is that this kata was formulated in 1956 by Kenji Tomiki who studied with both Kano (Judo) and Ueshiba.

The way we practice sumi otoshi in Tomiki Aikido is more in keeping with the judo application of this technique.

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RRuShMdNSnM"]YouTube - Goshin Jitsu (1º Parte)[/ame]

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xUr_kpZ1fNk"]YouTube - Goshin Jitsu (2º Parte)[/ame]