Which is better for effective self defense?

Boy am i glad this threads still active.

I've debated this myself a million times. I've been boxing (Conventional Boxing) for over 20 years and have recently made the transition to MMA and Kickboxing (tried muay thai but the clubs reputation was suspect).

In fact i made my own decision based on advice and guidance i obtained right here on MAP.

Now, to the topic in question. Sports based or Traditional arts for self defence.
My issue with traditional martial arts is the fact that they contain very little if any (there are exceptions of course) ACTUAL combat. Someone simply saying "this art is proven in REAL combat throughout history etc etc" doesnt cut it with me.

Boxing, muay thai, kickboxing, MMA....they conditon the individual both physically and equally as importantly, Mentally. If i found myself in street fight, who would i personally have standing with me? Someone trained in the, supposedly, deadly art of Filipino Kali? or The lad who's put the time in at the local boxing gym? I'd opt for the boxer everyday. Why? Because he's put in the pad work, the bag work and the sparring.....he may have fought competitively and therefore already has the mindset required to keep fighting back while being hit himself.
Its likely that our theoretical Kali practitioner, on the other hand, will have done lots of two man drills to build up the, so called, "muscle memory reflex" and "instinctive" reactions..however my issue again is with the fact they know what they are about to have thrown at them.

This brings back a saying i heard all to often while i was still serving in the British Army, "drills do not prepare you for the real thing" and "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy". Couldnt have put it better myself. Using the boxer, again, as an example..he/she has a small aresenal of movements to employ...a crisp jab to keep his/her opponent at bay with and to use to set range and set the more powerful shots up with, he/she has the cross and short powerful and compact hooks and uppercuts for use on the inside...his/her footwork will be sharp, and they add to the repetoire using effective feinting techniques, slipping, bobbing and weaving.

Muay thai, kickboxing and MMA equally use the K.I.S.S principle albeit, with a little more in the way of kick-assery in there to use. However they still utilise the principle of the basics..pad work, bag work, sparring and , if you so wish, competing. Lets also not forget the level of strength and conditioning and also, HEART, that these arts emphasise in their fighters. Being fitter, more enduring and having more Heart than the other guy can mean the difference between losing and winning as much as the level of skill possessed.

Another bug bear of mine is how some Traditional Martial artists insist that Sports based arts will not be as effective because its practitioners have to adhere to certain rules. This is complete and utter rubbish IMO. What they are trying to insinuate in this case is, that a Sports based combat athlete cannot tell the difference between a street defence situation? What guff. A boxer isnt going to stick to the Queensbury rules in a pub brawl and to insinuate otherwise is pure nonsense, much the same way as a BJJ or MMA practitioner isnt going to wait for the tap out in a similar situation.

Sorry if i waffled on there. But it does annoy me. I have respect for both the tradtional martial arts and Sports based arts, however, i firmly believe nothing conditions someone better to fight, than actually fighting (sparring included in that sentiment), along with a good hard dose of pad work and bag work.

Sorry for the rant all.
Morti.

 

Same as above.
I love TMA's. but they seriously need to get out of the Too deadly to use mindset and start sparring, competitively would be better.
As a kyokushin karateka, i'd like to see more muaythai rules sparring included at our clubs atleast. Bad habits can develop if one spars under knockdown rules only

 

osu,

Please forgive me, I have not read all the posts on this thread...

I agree with most of what you say mortimer657, but I'd like to share a little bit of my experience that might beam the flashlight from a different angle on what is quoted above from your post:
I am a kyokushin guy; I don't compete any longer, yet, most of our sparring uses the tourney rules. My Sensei is also high ranking in IOGKF GoJuRyu & when I was last in the US to train with him, I attended his GR classes on top of the kyokushin ones.
The first class we did randori, which is half speed, light sparring but everything goes (head strikes, joint manipulation, eye goujing, throat and groin strikes, joint strikes, grabbing, throwing, etc...). I was thinking: "Great, I love that stuff, let's have a go at that!" I was put out of my comfort zone at once and got my a$$ handed to me; I had no idea what to do and was on the retreat... The reason was I was completely self restricted by the habits ingrained by years of "sports rules" in my sparring.
Of course I adapted quickly, but it was a real eye opener to me! I am grateful to my sensei for this lesson, maybe it will one day save my life!

Later, we had the GoJuRyu students practice some semi hard sparring, kyokushin style... At that moment, it was an eye opener to them, but this is another story that 6footGeek, TKDMitch & yourself have already mentioned.



Osu!

 

i also think tma's are great. but i do think that there needs to be an update for their methods and include more sport sparring. it's almost as if tma's stick to their principles out of spite, or maybe "tradition" or whatever. thing is, judo was introduced almost 150 years ago. this stuff really isn't new.

 

I am litlle late but here my 2 cents.

It's all about mindset. There are no styles or rules in real word. There are fighting. Just it.

You may practice in various styles, one style, traditional style, self defense, or sport, but on the street you have to be ready to do anything that situation ask for, and to do it with intention to badly damage attacker. Completely open mind waiting for something to react. Nothing else.

In this mindset it' pretty bad to think in some style box.

People may ask why then practice 20 defences for one attack, plus practice it in the way you will not use it on the street?

It would be pretty stupid not to defend yourself only because you couldn't have perfect stanve right. Or to do wrist locks to someone who holds your hand, instead of kicking his knees or testicals. Right?

So doesn't matter what your style or your teacher tells you must try to make your defense the most possibly simple, dangerous, and fast.

Practicing alot of moves will help you by building kinestetic knowledge of yours and opponent body, by having prediction how would be good to behave in various situations. I always ask people what if or some reason your testicals kick or eye gauging doesn't work. Those are most simply and effective tehniques but you can't use then in literally every situation.

So to some this up, practice whatever you practice, ask sometimes yourself how move you do could really damage somebody, do full contact or at least strong sparring, and fight with your fears. If ever comes to a real fight, just forget about anything, let adrenalin pumps up your body, and hit the nail.

And one more.

Lot of people does shares people to those who practice real self defense and who practice sport. Why they think those who do sport don't know self defense? And vice versa??

Maybe some regular John, but there are martial arts enthusiast, who competes, practice self defense, practice with weapons, fighting at all distances, so as learning history of their and other martial arts and so on.

Offcourse there are people who are good at it all, and it should be like that if you take martial arts seriously.

 

Reading this thread with interest, looking to get back into regular training after a 4 year absence, following a recent 'encounter.'

With Wing Chun what someone says at the beginning of the thread can be true, WC isn't always taught well. I've been to some clubs which didn't give me much in terms of self defence, one in particular gave me more tools for the street than ever before.

I'm attracted to Muay Thai, the only issue I have had with it is that the fighters specifically training for competitions get the most instruction and attention, if you're there specifically just for self defense and are not looking to getting in the ring, you don't seem to be as important to the trainers. Same gos for some Tai Kwon Do clubs...
This is understandable, but difficult for a student if you specifically want to study Muay Thai for self defense. Any one knows of a London club that would cater for this please let me know!

 

I must stress...you dont HAVE to compete, but i'd highly reccomend you push yourself to do some sparring....you may find it surprising how quick it will boost your confidence, your desire to improve your skill and may even eventually tempt you to step into the ring or cage (depending on which art/sport you choose). If you never try, you'll never know. Personally for me nothing compares to the sheer buzz of competing...i may be the only one here but for me its 110% addictive.

Morti

Morti

 

I am probably repeating what others have said, and please forgive me if I am.
For self defense definetely learn the essentials of Muay Thai and BJJ especially BJJ with out the gi. In other words find a good MMA school.
But you want to compliment that with some adrenal stress training and modify your tactics to include illegal tactics that are banned from competition.
You don't have to go and learn any other reality self defense system to give you these, just use common sense and train the tools and weapons that you learn in Muay Thai and BJJ to strike the the most vulnerable targets: eyes, throat, groin and knees.

 

I'd say learn Gi and nogi, here in the uk, if i get attacked by a naked man, ive made a serious tactical error, seriously though, learning both is essential.

 

Yeah true, with the majority of fights Gi jiu jitsu tactics will prevail, but often scraps are in t-shirts or singlets that get ripped off so best to have both.

 

I never had a fight with a cage.

Is the favorite tactic of a cage is to "box-in" or "corner"?

 

Only in sport fighting. For self defence it favours 'the fence' badda boom kish :jester::banana::ban: