Which internal martial art produces the most powerful explosive force and why?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cpthindsight, Apr 21, 2015.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It's still coming from the toes first. You are talking about winding up for the punch. Which still starts with twisting your feet. The uppercut is an explosive movement just like any other hard punch. The feet generate the force at first. Tysons feet leave the ground because he's practically jumping. His feet have to move first to generate the power. The whole kinetic line is moving all as one but it starts with the feet, not the hips.
     
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    MAP Terms of Service ask people to not use text speak while posting on here. Please type out your words in full English in future posts. Thanks!:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm not really talking about windup for a punch because that takes too long and can telegraph the strike. I'm talking about aligning the body for attack and then exploding. Think about it this way... if it is preferred to move the weapon first (e.g. fist moves first) then all alignments already need to be in place prior to striking to have the cleanest technique.

    So do the hips move because the feet move or do the feet move because the hips move? It depends on the application. How about for these applications:

    When you sprawl, which moves first, hips or feet?

    When you throw a superman punch, which moves first, hips or feet?

    If the power starts with the feet, what generates the acceleration of a punch when jumping since your feet aren't touching the ground? If the power starts from the center and explodes out, then acceleration can be generated while in the air.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrxEe0Hxtyc"]How to Superman Punch - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Relaxation is important but ACCELERATION is the key... you have to go (for fa jing) from zero to 150mph as quickly as possible (that's not a real speed just an illustration) - you then have to be relaxed enough so that you hit through the target and have good enough structure (wrist, elbow and everything else) so that YOU don't get damaged by the strike...

    and relax 'more'...
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's kind of two sides of the same coin though, because you need to relax to reduce the effect of antagonistic muscles, which reduce acceleration.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    In fairness, you can start it anywhere. Plus, I don't know if anyone can jump using their toes, or did you mean the ball of the foot?

    Anyway, try this:

    Hold your calf muscles and move your foot.

    Hold your thigh muscles and move your calf.

    Cup your bum and move your thigh.

    Touch your abs and back muscles and move your thigh.

    Feel around your hip socket and move your foot, calf, then thigh.

    Now get into your stance and push off the ball of your rear foot in slow motion, and repeat all of the above.

    It's all connected, and remember that acceleration is key, not speed. To get the most acceleration you move everything in concert, otherwise you are losing power.
     
  7. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Scottish backhold wrestling.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gN5nS67kuM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gN5nS67kuM[/ame]
     
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Don't believe the hype. What they're known for is a matter of marketing, not objective truth. That's not a criticism of internal arts either. Everyone makes claims. It's not a question of what art generates the most power (no matter how many practitioners or television shows would have you believe that). It's a question of how well an individual performs the power generation inherent in their style. You have lots of verifiable evidence that boxers, for instance, can generate power. Enough to knock one another out, clearly. Think critically. Don't buy any party lines.
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Is that the script of your new fitness video? Just kidding :p

    I would take the stand that acceleration is only important at the point of striking through the target. It isn't our acceleration but the acceleration in what you are hitting that does the explosive damage. Your weapon could be traveling at a constant speed or even decelerating but still cause great acceleration through the target. For example, a bullet doesn't accelerate in flight but does most of the acceleration at the beginning (barrel and a few feet afterwords) but it penetrates and causes acceleration in the target.

    Here is an example of a very powerful technique in boxing... it is basically the "swing":

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqf42bsTXnY"]Chuck Liddell Teaches His Overhand Right... - YouTube[/ame]

    In boxing, the above technique would be discouraged because swings can be evaded and countered easier than a hook or more crisp technique by a skilled opponent. Nevertheless, swings still produce great power.

    How this relates to acceleration is that the technique is done accelerating before it hits the target, it is the weapon (knuckles), relaxation, structure, and alignment that transfer the power into the target, causing acceleration through the target. To the person punching, it feels like deceleration because the energy is going into the target.

    The one thing it should not feel like is "bounce" where you bounce off the target or get jammed.

    Edit: Using the bullet analogy, the acceleration is done in the shortest amount of distance as feasible (longer is better but usually not practical to do so) and the rest is just getting the weapon to the target with your full body behind it. This helps to prevent getting jammed.

    Edit2: I forgetting that acceleration needs to come naturally (not forced), otherwise, if forced, you get a "shake effect" that distributes the energy inefficiently in directions other than towards the target.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  10. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    While some CMAS may be better at developing power in the practitioner than others there isn't any such recognition given to any one particular system.

    You presume in error.

    As to power in general,they,and I mean many,many CMAs,not just the so-called "internal" systems,simply have some methods for power development and types/expressions of power that many other systems don't.

    I'd note those other systems seem to survive quite well without them.Visit a boxing gym.

    In general,no one hits harder than western boxers.No one.

    As for fa-jing, it's actually a somewhat limited,and limited in it's application,method of issuing. It ain't the be-all/end all some think it is.
     
  11. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    What does it it matter if you can't hit anything?

    There are plenty of different ways of generating power within individual arts as well as between them but whether it's springing or whipping, body rise or body drop, what matters is can you hit them with it.

    An axe is a great powerful weapon but if I have a spear you're probably out of luck. {Guys, this isn't a complicated concept. Knock it off.}
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2015
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Spear huh, that is a very pointy statement. Who axed you for your opinion anyway. :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2015
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Your mistake there was assuming his fist wasn't still accelerating.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force

    Also, a bullet's force is reduced for every inch after it leaves the barrel. The closer you are to the acceleration of the charge, the greater the velocity of the round.

    I don't get what you're saying about bullets accelerating in the target. What do you mean?
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I guess I wasn't very clear.

    The swing generates great power and generates the acceleration over a longer distance. What I was getting at is that if you use such a technique for power and say that someone charges in and intercepts you at the halfway point, there is a very good chance your swing can be jammed and hit with very little power. A proper boxing hook, for example, generates the power over a much shorter distance and thus is harder to jam.

    Many people equate swings as hooks, but really they are different in how they generate the power over distance. The swing starts the power as you move in... it is very close to the "lunging hook" as for power generation. With a hook, you move in first (as needed) and then you hook. You don't start the regular hook as you move in (unless it is the lunging hook... which is more like a swing).

    So I'm saying it is more practical to use techniques that generate the acceleration over a shorter distance so you don't get jammed.

    Technically the bullet still accelerates for a small distance after leaving the barrel, but that doesn't change really what you are saying.

    What I am saying is that after acceleration you get deceleration. Learning to use the deceleration as transfer of energy through the target is part of technique. Two examples: (1) Say that you have bladed weapon like a katana. The blade cuts through the target. The cleaner the cut, the more effortlessly it cuts. Forcing the blade to accelerate through the target causes a pushing action creating side to side "shaking" bringing the sword to swerve off target, etc.
    (2) You have a punch, it accelerates and hits the target. When the fist hits the target, trying to force the punch to accelerate through the target creates the same side-to-side instability as with the sword cut. Rather the deceleration is not forced but used to cut through and penetrate.


    Bullets cut through the target. A bullet that cuts through does more damage than a bullet that hits a bullet proof vest and spread out the force over a larger area.

    A punch strikes through a target but naturally decelerates, in the process, the strike should accelerate "fragments" of what is hit through the target, beyond the knuckles.

    Edit: I just remembered a better way of putting it. You want instant transfer of energy through the target rather than energy transferred over a longer period time. This creates the acceleration through the target.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ah, ok, I didn't get that at all. I agree!

    What makes the bullet accelerate after it leaves the barrel? (I'm not disagreeing, just genuinely interested)

    Then why bother with the push-pull/hand-wringing acceleration with a sword stroke?

    How does accelerating through a target produce this instability in a punch? What effect are you describing, exactly?

    What do you mean by "fragments"?

    Edit: just saw your edit. By "instant transfer of energy" rather than "energy transferred over a longer period of time", it looks to me that you are just describing acceleration.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Gasses are still expanding behind the bullet as it leaves the barrel. Not really sure for how long though before the gasses disperse.

    If the fist is still TRYING to accelerate after you make contact, then it become more of a push and spreads out the force over a larger surface area. The spreading out diverts forces in directions other than through the target.

    I think you should always strike through a target but the time of contact should be minimal. The sword cut with a katana can be like casting a fishing rod. The fish lure and hook are what continue to accelerate, whereas the fishing rod cuts along the surface.

    I think what I'm trying to describe is the fist decelerating in a natural manner due to relaxation and technique. That deceleration shortens the time for full amount of the energy to transfer through the target.

    Think about dribbling a basketball, you accelerate the ball by causing the ball to bounce, not causing yourself to bounce off the ball.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You totally lost me with the basketball thing :confused:

    The deceleration thing makes no sense to me at all. The weakest of arm punches decelerate the quickest... that doesn't mean they're putting more energy into the target :confused:
     
  18. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Punches from the air, and like wise on the ground, cannot generate power from the toes for obvious reasons. I was talking about the basic 8 punches of boxing.
     
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Which muscles in the toes produce all this power?
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    so as i mistakenly posted in the other thread, i'm going to nitpick: all movement starts with gravity and is defined by how you respond to that (hell, controlled falling makes up a huge part of effective power generation in many type of techniques)
     

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