Which art is best of 'da streets'

Some good points and so not so good points in the video. Fallacy #1 is pitting TMAs against TMAs… "UFC provided overwhelming evidence that BJJ was best" etc etc. This is outdated thinking which he finally gets around when he concludes that “the only thing better than BJJ is BJJ mixed with something else” i.e. MMA. Since MMA has pretty much become an art of its own, just cut to the chase and don't wait 8 minutes to finally conclude that it is "king of the streets”. Pepper spray, sure, but a corollary issue to being committed to a ground based strategy is that, unless you’re on top AND they’re in your field of vision, you will NOT see the guy behind you about to kick you in the head. If you’re in the bottom, it’s even worse.

As much as BJJ awesomely incorporates full resistance sparring, adding punches to the mix makes it a whole new deal. Everyone has a plan until they punched in the mouth...and their grappling skills get worse with every punch, too. That’s without even tackling proper punching range management which someone who only trains pure sports BJJ is going not even be technically cognizant of – they’ll have to rely on instinct and might find out real quick that technique X is not so good on da street after eating a punch or two and by that time it might already be game over. How many who have no MA training other than BJJ have ever trained weapons defense? I won’t talk for everyone everywhere but no gym in my area even teaches defense vs punches in my area that I’ve heard. That’s also without even mentioning that many competition oriented BJJ gyms don’t even work on takedowns unless a tournament is looming, which weakens BJJ's SD worthiness further.

Re: multiple attackers - As rare as the scenario might be – and I don’t think it’s nearly as rare as he makes it sound - you just HAVE to be mobile to even start dealing with it, period. Not because you’re planning on knocking out 10 hapless guys one after the other, but because you want to keep them within your field of vision in check and no closer than punching range, while attempting to evade any way you can. I love BJJ. Even when I trained trained JJJ, newaza was my favorite part but there’s a fundamental flaw in committing to the ground. There are way too many additional parameters in SD and it is vastly more complicated subject to assess than “BJJ beat all in the early UFC tournaments so do that and pepperspray up and you’re good to go". Your best weapon remains awareness. Knowing where not to be and when/how to avoid trouble. You could have zero fighting experience and go through life without a scratch if you have good awareness just like you could be a world class MMA or BJJ guy and get stabbed, shot or beaten to death at your local dive bar this Friday night because you have none.

 

There have been a number of things from Iain Abernethy and Jamie Clubb that have clarified my thinking on this sort of thing.

One is the "by-product myth". The idea that training for one thing will automatically have a by-product of preparing you for something else. Training for a competition fight preparing you for a street fight for example. There will be some cross over and common ground in many cases. Maybe you will get some measure of additional by-product. But really if you want to prepare for a specific sphere then your training is best served specifically training for that sphere. BJJ is great but you CAN specifically tailor it for a real fight rather than the Pan Ams or even MMA.
You can have the best MMA fighter in the world but if he's no experience of real violence then he can be sucker punched by a street savvy attacker before he even knows he's in a fight.

Another idea is "the martial map" Venn diagram. Mapping out your training and realising what fits where, what fits overlap (the real "by product" areas) and what your goals are.

If you wanna defend yourself train to do that.
If you want to be a BJJ phenom train to do that.
Those two goals share some common ground but they are not the same.
Honestly realise (and test) the limitations of each and address them if your goal is to achieve both of those goals.

 

i kind of like how jigoro kano put it, and i'll have to find the exact quote. but (paraphrasing): kata, randori, and shiai will help to prepare someone for ambiguous circumstances. i don't think any "sport fighter" can honestly say that training in bjj is the end of the story and suddenly, one is d34dly. but i think the combination of technique, sparring and competition helps to build up the necessary attributes. but let's face it, the mind is our greatest defense and greatest weapon.

addendum: i also like the venn diagram pa. i'm a big visualization guy. like i make bjj flow diagrams quite a bit. cheers.

 

Much of the issue stems from people overestimating the size of the overlap.

 

All arts / sports are just delivery systems, a sport choke isn't going to that different to a SD choke, and the majority of SD only people (not Geoff as he is a big fan of combat sports) are less then useless.

Standup, clinch and Ground, then layer your SD specific tactics etc on top, if you do it the otherway round, your foundation skills will be weak, for an example see - systema, and KM.

 

please quote where i said there were no throws in BJJ, I said id chose the art thats spents the majority of its time learning to throw and stay balanced over the art that spends 70%+ of its time on ground work,

BJJ does not teach you how to strike standing or in the clinch, MMA does (and you said BJJ not MMA)
The majority of BJJ classes are gi and no gi grappling classes where the vast majority of the time is spent on ground work. Thats not a knock on the art its simply a result of its competition format, size of classes and insurance issues with teaching a throw heavy art like judo.
Now if a BJJ school teaches striking and MMA id say go there but this is normally in a separate class not in the BJJ classes

 

You're still thinking in terms of combative skill sets. These are not necessarily the decisive factors in a self defence situation.

 

Here's the martial map diagram.
As greg said I think people over estimate where the areas intersect or wrongly place things in one area when really they should be in another.

The difference between SD and sport isn't just in the techniques.
Sure you could RNC someone in BJJ and a street fight but when and why they are applied are different.
If I had the choice to triangle choke someone that choice is different depending on whether I'm in a cage or a queue for taxis. The choke itself won't be different (get the angle, trap the shoulder, lock down the leg, secure the ankle behind the knee , etc etc) but whether that is the right thing to do at that time is a distinction.
And that distinction is important I think. More important than the ardent sport guys give it credit and less important than the most ardent RBSD guys think.

 

It was the implication. You said that Judo allows you to stand and grapple. Bjj does as well. Does it do it as well as Judo? Probably not, but at the same time, many of Judo's throws are impractical because they're gi-reliant.

Why strike from the clinch when you can throw from the clinch?

Again, gi-reliant throws. In reality, in a street situation you're going to be doing reaping and trips, not 5 point ippon throws. Guess what? Stand up Bjj has reaping and trips. The reason a lot of Judo throws were removed from Bjj was because the majority of them were impractical without the gi.

Outside the gym very few clothing that people wear is as thick as a Judo gi. BTW, the same applies to many Bjj grips and chokes. However, the difference is that Bjj schools also teach no-gi grappling which teaches you how to adjust to a lack of clothing and utilize the body's natural handles. Judo does not, which hinders a lot of what you learn in the gym.

As someone who has done both gi and no-gi grappling, and have had to use my training in a SD situation, I will say that if I had zero nogi training, I would have been in a lot of trouble. You say that Judo has explosive newaza? Its hard to be explosive when you're relying on a thick jacket to give you grips.

 

They can be if you lack them. You only have so much under your control, so being well rounded is essential.

 

Circumstances always dictate tactics, but that doesn't mean having poor technical ability can be excused. SD is a higher pressure environment then sport, so the best SD people should easily be able to swim in the sports world, but they can't because of poor training methodology.

 

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/entertainment/articles/2015-07/06/bear-grylls-how-to-fight-self-defence

Bear grylls's view, not bad for this type of article, well until he mentioned KM!

 

I agree to a point and people like Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy have students that I'm sure could do exactly that. As well as stressing the need for specificity to your desired goal they also advocate being well rounded and tackle standup, clinch and ground in a holistic way.

 

while i like the idea of visualization, i honestly think that the "martial art" section shouldn't even be there.

 

My SD is good precisely because I train in that framework - it SHOULD be a hallmark of all JKD schools...but it often isn't sadly

The other thing is a willingness to "compartement" your training; I don't kick in boxing class, wrestle in kicking class or use weapons in wrestling....but I do make notes and have a "blend" class where thos eingredients are combined

You can never radically improve a specific area if you constantly "pollute" it with external influence

 

"Martial art" is the area where Iain Abernethy puts stuff like training for fun, training for fitness (some carry over into the other areas there), history, culture, self improvement (some carry over into the other areas?), to perpetuate the art, social reasons, etc etc.
We can debate the categories (and I have with Iain himself) but I think the general idea is to make you training have focus, honesty and clarity.

 

That's a very sweeping statement.

Taking the law of averages and given that most participants in most sport orientated disciplines do not actively compete I'm not convinced that there is merit in the claim that SD or non sporting disciplines suffer overall from lower technical standards from sporting disciplines. Is there quantifiable evidence of this?

How often have we seen (the best) SD people trying to swim in the sports world? Are there enough instances to make a qualified judgement?

 

Alternatively you can be an elite level competitor and be completely undone because you didn't realise you were in a self defence situation until it was over, or you couldn't process what was happening and froze up.

 

And that's where it comes down to rate limiting factors, you can train the physical 20 hrs a week and still not hit your technical peek, whereas its difficult to train SD specific material 20 hours a week for months on end, and not hit a technical peek.

So you train the physical delivery systems, and add on the SD specifics afterwards.

 

A) I'm not entirely sure if you've taken on my earlier point, you still seem to be talking about physical skillsets and B) if you have then this is a long way from your initial statements and not at odds with what I'm saying.