When other Arts do knife defense, it just looks like Aikido... But when Aikidokas do it, they say it won't work... Go figure... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEZS_wBFt8"]YouTube - Gracie Knife Defense[/ame]
The Dogbrothers and Gabe Suarez... The Technique here, the "Dog Catcher", is so "secret" they digitally masked it! Lol... Still looks like Aikido at the end imho... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc&playnext=1&list=PLB52B664D49E807C2"]YouTube - Dog Brothers and Gabe Suarez[/ame]
Looks can be deceiving. Sometimes people see things because those are the things they are looking for. Compare the BJJ video you posted (linked below): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEZS_wBFt8"]YouTube - Gracie Knife Defense[/ame] To this example of an Aikido video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0uuaS_XMD4&feature=relmfu"]YouTube - Fundamental Aikido Techniques of Kokyunage : Aikido Techniques: Kokyunage Against a Single Wrist Grab[/ame] The movements are similar, but one is demonstrated with a knife and the other with a wrist grab.
Joint locks and manipulations are found in a lot of systems, not just aikido. The principles are somewhat universal, since we're all anatomically identical regardless of ethnicity. Not every joint lock in other systems is aikido-like or ripped off of aikido. The dog catcher isn't aikido-like at all. It's principles are completely different from aikido.
Rebel Waldo and jurumentado, you miss my point here. I did not say them techniques were ripped off of Aikido or that they work exactly like Aikido. I said it "looks like Aikido"... Here it is technically, follow me ok... Everyone critizes Aikido for hand or wrist grabbing when someone strikes at them... "That would never work against a boxing jab!" or "You could never catch my arm!" blablabla.. But then in a heartbeat, if you ask them to show you a knife attack defense technique, they go and catch the attackers arm... Wait a freaking minute, I thought you just cannot catch an attackers arm! But suddenly you CAN when he has a knife? Either we both got it wrong or... The mentality of a knife wielding killer is different than an MMA Fighter? Here's the point I'm trying to make IN ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE... Maybe, just maybe... Aikido is training in such a way that you are prepared to face a guy trying to kill you with a knife AND the rules change, psychologically and physically... He just goes buck wild and does not do all that boxing stuff? Maybe? And... Maybe, Aikido IS doing something right, no?
You have to remember that aikido is an offshoot or a development of jujutsu, just like judo is. There will be technical overlap, that is to be expected.
So in the gracie video they utilized a cross block, which when performed correctly gives you a catchment area almost a food wide. You can be seriously inaccurate with that kind of defence, and still 'catch' an arm. This is very different from how some people try to catch an arm using their hands coming from the side, or from a number of ineffectual methods. Not that the gracie video was what I would call a perfect knife 'defence' video. A few times they moved from a cross block to trying to catch the arm in position immediately. Very unlikely to work indeed! Also even when what my system calls a 'catch all technique', one that covers a large area and is hard to miss with, it still isn't a sure thing. With the cross block for example, often they'll just bounce off the block before you can move in, and attack again. For this reason it usually needs to be a ballistic strike, throwing your forearms into them and hence following them as they retract the arm, for me that's always been a quite high percentage technique, when tested under pressure. If I saw an aikido video demonstrating something like that, or another approach that was high percentage success, and especially if I saw it demonstrated under pressure; then it wouldn't matter what style it can come from. Good training is good training! The issue I think a lot of people find is that *some* aikido schools train with little or no pressure, and use techniques that look unlikely to work if actual pressure was applied. This doesn't apply to all of them, but it is reason to be sceptical. Admittedly, knife 'defence' is often an area where schools apply little or no pressure with fanciful techniques, so frankly I tend to have a lot of scepticism in that area until I've had a chance to test it for myself!
Neither video cover the reality of being engaged with a knife or some other blade, someone is going to be cut, the only question is how badly. In my opinion, technical development in this sort of training should also cover an introduction in how to apply the appropriate self aid should you be unfortunate to get cut. Many of these wounds can be life threatening but not immediately life threatening unless a major artery or organ has been involved thus, the right self aid can make all difference. Shame the vast majority of schools who teach "knife defence" don't also teach how to survive the high probability of the injuries likely to be sustained.
sakumeikan, read my other post... Kogusoku, I agree. Dizzyj, if pressure testing is the only issue then I say it is not the techniques of Aikido that is in question, its the training. I agree with pressure testing all techniques (because that technique you wrote is a part of Aikido), although I doubt most BJJers do any of it at all... I have done BJJ for a few years btw... Dave Humm, I completely agree about First Aid. Imho, it is the most neglected part of Self Protection worldwide... It should be a requirement for achieving Black Belt, in ALL Systems. And the next time anyone questions the hand grabbing in Aikido, just show them that everyone else is hand grabbing as well when about to be knifed, albeit a bit differently.
Knife defenses while unarmed are desperation moves. You are pretty much screwed at this point and anything you try might be better than doing nothing but not much. If you look into the dog brothers unarmed knife defense I believe it is referred to as get cut less often. They see it as a desperation move also. Knives do horrible damage and if the person has any clue how to use a knife you will be cut or stabbed before you even know he has one. If you can't get away then weapons of opportunity are your next best choice. You don't want him to get the knife into a range where it can make contact with your meat. If I can't get away from a knife wielding assailant then I prefer either to shoot him or run him over with my car. Just my 2 cents.
I agree. Of course, the training we all do is just in case we cannot escape the situation. I totally believe that Aikido (O Sensei) has always had THAT in mind... Diffuse the situation if possible, if you cannot, do your best to escape... Subdue if possible. Strike if you must. But if you must protect the innocent from getting killed, a Katana does the job quite well...
Everybody wants to promote their own system. I've heard just as many Aikidoka slagging off other arts. I was always taught to always assume there will be a weapon. Which possibly where things differ in mentality.
I wasn't really disagreeing with you, I was disagreeing with the perception about grabbing in Aikido. I was taught to avoid grabbing in Aikido. This does not mean that in Aikido we did not grab, it was just that when we grabbed that was considered more Judo or Ju-jutsu. When I see technique that does not immediately grab, but instead uses atemi and unbalances the enemy along the rear outside edge of their foot... that's more the Aikido I'm LOOKING for. What I saw in your example videos were to me "Ju-jutsu". As I said, Ju-jutsu can be used in Aikido all the same too. There shouldn't be a different mentality, just different intentions. I believe it is in the principles and fundamentals, one should always assume that there could be weapons and multiple attackers... even in a one-on-one fight. I've been seeing some of our Muay Thai fighters getting caught exchanging blows... I'm thinking it is time to get them into some training against a knife to re-enforce the importance of not trading blows with a knife. Should help them understand the importance of footwork, being a hard to hit target, and using angles while attacking. And also hopefully get them to understand the importance of stunning or unbalancing the enemy on contact. When I've trained with knife folks and they find out that I have a background in Aikido, they have nothing but good things to say about Aikido. We are not alone in thinking that Aikido is doing something right.
One of my routine training exercises with my students would be to arm them (all) with tanto. Uke would attack utilising the tanto, tori would chose to respond with tanto drawn or, seek to apply the tanto they carried at some opportune point in the application of their technique. If already drawn, tori's atemi now became much more prevalent to uke as they made their attack, funny to watch often entirely different responses from an uke once they know they're going to get isn't an open handed 'replication' of a strike but, a weapon of sorts being driven in their direction, (often to the neck or side of the face) If not already drawn, uke sought the opportunity to respond utilising the tanto either as a direct response or, as a 'threat' to uke to induce a degree of compliance through the over all technique. This application meant there wasn't a great deal of katate-dori (although it did happen) instead, the moment you gave a student something other than just his hand(s) to determine how they would attack, the levels of committed attacks and the responses increased significantly as did the situational awareness and focus of the students. In my own aikido and that of my teaching methodology to my students, I always attempted to maintain a direct correlation between the hand art's method and the weapon influences, linking the how this technique was born, with this is the empty handed application - see the similarities ? For me at least, this always ensured aikido made sense, given that in my opinion, aikido retains a great deal of koryu influence despite it being a gendai budo. I suppose what I'm referring to, is what I consider a disproportionate amount of wrist grabbing and the very weapon stylised/orientated attacks such as yoko and menuchi and tsuki. Dave
Very cool, thanks for sharing. I'm still working on this but I've been trying to figure out a statement for a while a few times mentioned by koyo but he got it from someone else: "Don't fight the enemy, duel them." I see this most in weapons training. What seems to be a contradiction at first is that a prevalent concept in self-defense is the ability to explode (go from 0 to 100% in an instant) but some duels depicted historically end up with very cautious approaches, even in some cases running away and turning around to attack, then running away again. Also of a bit contradiction at first is that I've read many who dueled ended up both dieing (perhaps from lack of good medical attention for their wounds after the duel, but dead nevertheless). I'm beginning to understand that there is no ONE way to duel but on the other hand, fighting always looks the same. Fighting is more predictable almost to the point where it is all out attacking or all out defending (in that you are out to hurt the other or out to just protect yourself). Dueling, might be described as attack and defense are one in that everything is a systematic breakdown of the enemy's ability to attack and defend effectively. I believe in the knife on knife training a lot more of the dueling aspect comes into play. You can just explode in at 100% but this usually ends up with mutual slaying (which happens most of the time, IME). However, with a systematic breakdown such as "defanging the snake", superior positioning, etc. when one does explode in at 100% it can be when the enemy is unprepared to defend themselves and unable to attack ideally. To simplify, I just tell students, "don't trade blows with a knife" and then extrapolate that to all forms of attack. Just some thoughts.
Dave Humm, that was a really good post. Very well thought out training. Making sense of it all almost. (Except them big baggy black pants, while not horse riding... I am kidding... ) Thank you for the great insights...
Knife There are a few different methods for knife disarms and defenses in Aikido. Attached is one of the three knife disarms we have done in our videos. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx9XD2Y8r58"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx9XD2Y8r58[/ame]
