<BEWARE: contentious opinion follows> In the spirit of George Silver (and his Paradoxes of Defence) I'd like to say the rapier is an incredibly dangerous weapon, not offering the user any protection during a fight. While the point will indeed (speed wise) beat the edge ... having an edge does allow for beat attacks and for removing your opponents arm at the shoulder. I therefore site as my favourite 'rapier' ... the back sword!
Yes, though I prefer the broadsword/backsword, I was impressed by a some of the skilled rapier work demonstrated during freeplay at the last BFHS event.... On a slightly different slant there's references to the use of wooden training rapiers from 1606 "The Seven Deadly Sinnes of London" Thomas Dekker. Which some may find interesting: And Swetnam advices: "To make your buttons take wall or flocks, and wrap it round in leather so big as a tennis ball, then make a notch within half an inch of your wooden foil or staff, but if it be an iron foil, then let there be an iron button riveted on the point, so broad as two pence, and then take your button being made as beforesaid, and set it on the end of your staff or foil likewise, and then take leather and draw hard upon it, and bind it with shoemakers ends or park thread in the notch, and another leather upon that again, for one leather may be worn out with a little practice" Louie
the rapier duels were impressive as was the skill displayed ... marco and I had fun messing about during the class BUT did you notice (although it might have been on the sunday) that when there was a mixed rapier/backsword duel the rapier was totally outclassed. No leverage against the backsword, its reach while impressive was controlled in the bind and the basic guard employed by the backsworder completely controlled the fine rapier blade.
Hi George... Yes, I gave it a go too... the 'practice' rapier they gave me during that session would have went through my unpadded opponent if i'd given it a wee push! Saw some mixed duels on the Saturday and watched a broadsword 'club' a rapier into submission - Though there was some real flowing rapier skill on display it was mainly rapier v rapier and didn't persuade me to go out and buy one... Then again, I've yet to see what a 'real' maestro of the knitting needle can do Louie
Crap, it don't matter if it's one of those steroid enhanced knitting needles or anything else pointy with an edge. Their skill translates. I vividly recall the first time I met Maestros Martinez and Accosta-Martinez. It was a a Bowie seminar Dwight was giving. Geez! The two of them were scary. Maestro Martinez did it so freaking EFFORTLESSLY. Dwight calls it the "Just Die" style (you got no chance, so make it easy on yourself and just die). I recall doing drills with Maestro (Maestrae?) Accosta-Martinez in which she opined that she didn't like the Bowie as well. I responded that my club co-founder Mark has the same opinion, feeling as he does that it's too close and he can't control measure and tempo as well in a knife fight as opposed to with a sword. "No, that's not it" she says. She then explained that she didn't feel like she could mitigate the Bowie as well as she could a Smallsword and instead of opting to just wound you, she'd have to just go ahead and kill you. ^@$#**! To sum it up, if it roughly resembles a blade at all, they're probably dangerous with it. Peace favor your sword, Kirk
Hi Kirk Crap??? That's a wee bit strong for stating that I have PERSONALLY yet to witness a maestro of the rapier at work and witness for myself how it can be adapted against other weapons like the broadsword???? What I witnessed was an inexperienced broadsword player beat the more experienced rapier player.... (and someone with 1 years longsword experience steamroller someone with 10 years longsword/rapier/broadsword experience) I am in no doubt that if it roughly resembles a blade at all, they're probably dangerous with it - but so is the opponent. cheers! Louie
Maybe my experience with Maestros is non-representative. It could be that the Maestro's Martinez are simply phenoms with the blade and have a sort of blade-savant intuition (which I would be happy to concede with the presentation of sufficient evidence that their ability far surpassed that of others in similar circumstances). All of the other Maestros who I know personally who know the Rapier also have experience with Broadsword and Heavy Saber (such as Paul McDonnald, as one example). So, again, it could simply be that my experience is non-representative. I should clarify that I have little doubt that a properly used Broadsword can really "bully" a Rapier blade. (I recall one quote coming from one of the English wars, which one I can't remember right now, to stating to the effect, "The young men went off to war with Rapiers but returned with Broadswords." I can't remember where I saw the quote and anyone who knows is entreated to illuminate me.) My experince is (and understand that this is only my experience, not "proof" of anything) that Maestros of the Rapier are just freaking highly skilled, period, end of statement. Peace favor your sword, Kirk
Hi again Kirk.... Hamster's bouts at the last BHFS event is the closest thing I've seen to what you've described but that's in longsword.... I have no reason to doubt your experience and hope to see the same maestros in action, although I should point out that I have been to 3 freeplay events hosted/attended by Maestro MacDonald but he hasn't participated in any freeplay. Your obviously having better luck than me Cheers! Louie
The only thing close to freeplay I've personally seen Maestro McDonald participate in was an exhibition of Cudgelling rules of Singlestick with (ims) Jared Kirby. I threw out his name as an example of a Maestro I know who has experience with both the Broadsword and the Rapier. I appologize if I was unclear or seemed misleading there. Sorry. I know that for two years running ISMAC had exhibition "booths" open to the public in which (I THINK) Maestro McDonald gave semi-freeplay exhibitions, however I never got to witness any of them. The first year, I was taking a nap (burned out from the activities) and the second year Steve Huff drafted me to assist in his Bowie & 'Hawk exhibition booth (photos of me getting "crash test dummied" available through the smugmug link at the ISMAC site). Peace favor your sword, Kirk
Came across a couple of Broadsword v Rapier demos featuring Paul (in black with rapier) for anyone interested in rapier! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_ywKtZZxYY"]Macdonald Academy: Backsword vs Rapier 2 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzGn7MG8YMQ"]Macdonald Academy: Backsword vs Rapier 3 - YouTube[/ame] Louie
Came across this article by Tom Leoni regarding the rapier's ability to withstand a longsword blow.... Parrying a full-intent longsword cut with a rapier? Absolutely. by Tom Leoni On the last day of the Western Washington WMA Workshop 2005, leading German-longsword researcher Christian Tobler and I set out to prove that a rapier is perfectly capable of withstanding full-blown longsword cuts delivered at speed. This demonstration occurred before numerous instructors, sword-makers and seminar attendees, including Maestri Ramon and Jeanette Martinez, Gary Chelak, Jherek Swanger, Angus Trim and others. The weapons used for the demonstration were an Angus Trim blunted longsword and a 1998 Darkwood Armory rapier (3-ring with shell) with a Del Tin Mark II practice blade. The test: I asked Christian to deliver a series of full-intent zornhaus (downward diagonal cuts similar to a mandritto squalembrato) to my left collar-bone. I would attempt to parry them with my rapier, with no more protection than a regular fencing glove. (My lack of further protection did not arise from bravado - but rather from the knowledge that, had I missed the parry, nothing short of full armor would have prevented me from receiving injury.) We started the action with Christian in Vom Tag and me in a Fabris terza guard. After carefully assessing the measure of the action, Christian delivered the first full-speed cut, which I parried by turning my hand in quarta, aiming the point at Christian’s fencing-mask and lunging forward. Christian’s longsword therefore impacted the true edge of my blade at a very acute angle (approximately 20 degrees), losing some of its momentum and subsequently stopping at my hilt - specifically, at the juncture between the inner guard and the forward arm. Also, I strove to meet Christian’s blade forte-on-forte so as to receive the cut from the less momentous part of the longsword. Incidentally, this is the parrying technique specifically recommended by Fabris; the only poetic license on my part was to substitute the lunge for the pass as my accompanying footwork. Christian repeated the cut a half-dozen times, with full intent. The result was always the same. Interestingly, the angle at which I met Christian’s cut greatly reduced the "felt" impact of the parry on my sword-hand and arm. After the test, my rapier was closely examined by its maker, Scott Wilson of Darkwood armory, and no visible nicks were detected save for one almost imperceptible dent on one side of the blade (which could have been there before). The conclusions we drew from this exercise (as I was hoping) are the following: A rapier will not necessarily be damaged when matched against a heavier weapon Most of the modern myths about a rapier’s flimsiness are false Fabris’ recommended technique for parrying cuts works splendidly Correct technique is the most important aspect in the performance of an action such as this Regrettably, we did not take pictures (or shoot a video) of the test. I do, however, hope that my good friend Christian will again oblige at the next event so that we can further document this action. http://www.salvatorfabris.com/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml Louie
I never understood this one, personally. Anyone who's ever picked up an actual Rapier knows how much steel there is in one. Peace favor your sword, Kirk
depends on the rapier. The earlier ones are substantial beasts indeed fully capable of removing an arm and would shrug off a longsword but the later spanish jobbies with the 'bell' hand guard weigh almost nothing - a longsword would snap them in half. Admittedly there would have to be time travel going on for a spanish style rapier to meet up with a longsword in a combat setting but the people who do these comparisons never consider the time line of a weapons usage. Also rapier are civilian defense weapons so shouild not be on a battle field. Also interesting to see mr tobler with a steel weapon in his hand rather than a foam one. (above based on the 2 rapiers - earlier and later - I got my hands on at the Royal Armouries back in march)
Are you thinking, perhaps, of the Smallsword instead of the Rapier? Spanish style rapiers: http://www.strongblade.com/prod/largeimage.html?imgname=sbbr_toledorapier_sil1_l.jpg http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Cazoleta_Rapier_TS-701.html http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Spanish_Rapier_TS-703.html http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c721.html (Bearing in mind that I'm not a Rapier fan, personally. I don't really like "pokey" swords.) Peace favor your sword, Kirk
more this sort of thing They were the last hurrah of the rapier before the short sword became the must have weapon. The one I got my hands on at Leeds weighed almost zero. It was like waving a lightsabre about! It tracked well but had no presence. The earlier raier had real presence ... I would have had no prob in the bind against a cutting orientated weapon. Note how thick the blade is but this is a rapier as well!
