Once again dex Im very sorry for my pathetic outbursts. I dont agrees with very much you say but thats life and im out of order. All the best mate
I got sent this article from a friend in the US. I think its a superb explanation of the difference between Aiki and randori. hope you like it. Aikido and Competition A general perception of Aikido is that there are no competitions. This is generally true, although there as some styles which have limited competitions. Tomiki style, for example, has matches using tanken (short swords) with dull blades, and specific rules for scoring points. Also, some trainees like to test each other to see if they can make their techniques work against other trainees who are resisting with full power, and vice-versa. This is constructive in moderation since any weaknesses and defects in technique become immediately clear, as long as the primary goals of perfecting technique and developing cordial relationships with other trainees is maintained in the forefront. However, these diversions are not comparable to the type of competitions found in karate and other martial arts in which a contestant is free to use a variety of techniques in a relatively spontaneous manner for the express purpose of winning a victory over another contestant. An official explanation for the lack of competition in Aikido is that this particular martial art is based on harmony, and competition is the antithesis of its primary objective. Although this is certainly valid, a brief review of the derivation of Aikido from older martial art forms will show that there is also a very practical reason for discouraging Aikido trainees from going at each other flat out. An interesting little book entitled "Judo, Appendix Aikido", by Kenji Tomiki (the founder of the above referenced Tomiki style of Aikido), which was published in 1956, includes a chart showing classes of "Judo" technique. These are classified into two main categories, "Aiki techniques" and "Randori techniques". The Aiki techniques are described as a "system of techniques in the applying of which it is considered most ideal not to be seized by the opponent", and include "Kansetsu techniques" (bending or twisting joints) and "Atemi techniques" (attacking vital points). The Randori techniques are described as a "system of techniques to be applied by seizing hold of each other", and include grappling techniques and throwing techniques. Although Tomiki considers Judo to include both classes of techniques, he writes that "practice in these techniques of attacking the vital points and bending or twisting the joints is not to be carried on by means of contests as in the case of the randori techniques, for from the nature of those techniques it is attended with danger". Different martial arts focus on different aspects of applying and controlling force (karate emphasizes atemi, judo emphasizes grappling and throwing, etc.). In general, however, if a martial art is to provide a forum for competition which minimizes the possibility of death and serious injury, the forum must necessarily include rules which prohibit the more dangerous techniques. This was implemented in the case of judo by allowing only randori techniques in contests. Aikido went in the opposite direction from Judo. To quote from "Traditional Aikido", by Morihiro Saito, Vol. V, "It is a well-known fact that matches are prohibited in Aikido. This is because Aikido has inherited a number of lethal techniques from its Founder, which render matches too dangerous an exercise, and also because the art purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement. If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry. Even if only empty-handed techniques are allowed, the techniques inherent with Aikido are too terrific to make Ukemi (rolls and somersaults in defense) possible. True, such Ukemi against throwing is made possible deliberately in training sessions. However, execution of techniques becomes uninhibited in matches and the dangers involved are obvious. The answer to the question of why Aikido is not identified with a sport or a contest is simple". No single martial art can provide everything, and Aikido sacrifices competition in favor of including potentially dangerous techniques which were originally developed for lethal combat and handed down from our predecessors. Fortunately, there are many excellent martial art styles which offer competition and are available for persons who are so oriented. All people are different, and those who are interested in martial arts should seek out a style which best suits their personality and goals. If one martial art does not provide everything they are looking for, they may consider training in several. A good strategy is to select the most apparently suitable martial art as primary, and train long enough to develop a high level of proficiency. Then, seek out other martial arts and incorporate their teachings into the primary system. This is, in fact, an excellent way to become a true and well rounded martial artist.
Hmm, I agree with a certain amount of that (hey, I'm as surprised as anyone about that!), but there are a couple of points I'd like to pick up. 1) That was published in 1956. Things change. Ideas develop. Martial arts evolve. 4 years late, in 1960, Tomiki presented his idea to theorize aikido competition at a meeting of the Japan Physical Education Society. From this came the prototype for toshu randori (both unarmed), then tanto randori (one with a tanto, one unarmed). The ultimate point of the tanto is to provide the initiation of the 'play', not as a way to teach people to fight with knives. 2) Exactly. 3) All martial art contains techniques that could be lethal. For many, this is the logical result. A strike can kill, and a throw can kill. Manipulation of the joints may be the least 'lethal' of these classes of attack. An interesting article though, showing how views can change over time. Thanks for posting it Stef, as I've not actually had any exposure to the book mentioned.
Randori or competition, they are not the same? Isn't it true that in Iwama they had a form of competition where people fully resisted..and to be beaten by anyone of the same or lower grade was a grave insult? Didn't people purposely avoid being graded in order to excel in this competition? yeah...that is what ours is
I think its a fair point made. I dont think the letter puts down tomiki in any way. I think it clearly shows the different routes that where available to take. I think it also shows tomikis knowledge aswell and how he direction but kept the essence of what o sensei and kano wanted. use it go in a very different check out this website dex (http://www.iwama-aikido.com/Alexander_Bio.html ) its where this article was sent from. The teacher is called David alexander, hi lived in the Iwama village for over ten years in the 70s. Read all his other articles, there is some points on what you asked about ressitsence. Theres some great reading on there , make sure to read the Iwama monagatori(storys)
I agree with everyone. Basic technical training is a must, with our without resistance. However resistance in that meaning is not real resistance (it is not fake either, that is not my meaning). Resistance comes from reflex, from intelligence, from unwillingness and from desperation and so on (chaotic resistance). Resistance can be used to guide someone in a different direction or to encourage them to lean a little to heavily (tactical resistance). Randori can be any of these. If you are having randori with a big strong guy you can expect strength resistance (yang). An agile girl will be resistant in an entirely different way (yin). A lower grade will be resistant by not coming near you (yin). A higher grade will resist you by trying to use superior technique (yang). You need all of these all the time or you will not improve. You become one with your body through many trials and failures. You need many different people to help learn this.
Sorry to get this off track somewhat, as I have nothing to add to this Tomiki discussion only questions. However, from the answers given it would seem that if a question is given a good answer is sure to follow, so here goes... The Aikido I know of is not of the Tomiki variety but of the Yoshinkan variety and since I'm considering Aikido as a possible art to study so here are my questions... a.) Are there elbow, head, hand (knife edge and open palm) strikes? b.) As far as footwork goes is there any footsweeps or knees or any other offensive or defensive action going on in Tomiki? c.) Obviously it's a good form of defense, but what range of attack and defense is utilized? As in is it short-medium range on attack and just short range on defense (for example)? In short, can I successfully use this in a airplane or a crowded alley or bathroom for defense? d.) Finally, is this form of Aikido truly effective against a Brock Lessnar type of opponent? A big, experianced, angry brute, a tank in other words? (a serious question by the way as this tends to be what I usually end up fighting) Thanks ahead of time for your answers
Randori in this thread is really referring to a form of free practice with resistance, (competitive or not is not really important at the moment), as opposes to just any old free practise. In shodokan (Tomiki if you must), there are 3 (or 4 if you consider competition) recognised levels of free practise: Kakarigeiko - light practise with no resistance. This gives both particip[ants the opportunity to practise both techniques and ukemi. Hikitategeiko - A bit more unpredictable that kakarigeiko. Uke will not fall unless tori succeeds in breaking their balance first. If this does not happen, uke can move around and out of the way of the attack, meaning tori must adapt and change what they are doing. Randori keiko - One player can attack with a tanto at will ( within the rules laid down for shiai), and use any amount of movement neccessary to avoid being thrown. Randori shiai - Competitive randori. Gives you the chance to train against people you would not otherwise never have met, adding to the unpredictability of the match. This is not neccessarilly a level above any of the others. The underlying aim should still be to improve your aikido, although this sadly is not always the case.
