Whats MMA?

I think you have this backward honestly. Of course the concept of mixing styles isn't new. But you talk as though the sporting format adopted the term in an effort to somehow cash in on the work of others. That doesn't make any sense. There was nothing to cash in on in that concept. The closest cash cow I can think of is JKD. And they didn't start calling it "competitive JKD." They called it "mixed martial arts."

The progression of events is that, after the format began to gain traction, schools that had legitimately been combining styles (or illegitimately in some cases) began adopting the term MMA for their use. And that's where the cashing in began. It's a way to associate themselves with a burgeoning new format that was attracting a lot of attention from precisely the sort of demographic that clamours to sign up for martial arts classes.

The overall concept of combining arts isn't new. But isn't it funny that none of the schools that have been doing it for ages began to adopt that specific term until it took off as a ring sport. They could have described themselves as "hybrid styles" or "synthesized styles" or "integrative styles." But they went with "mixed martial arts" after, and only after, that term had been embraced by an up-and-coming spectator sport. In my view, it's too late at that point. That term is taken. It has specific connotations. And the only reason to then use it is to cash in on its existing popularity.

At the end of the day, it's a term. It was coined to describe a specific set of practices. And using it will necessarily imply a connection with those practices, whether one exists or not. Any school that applies that term now is either mindfully trying to plug into that reference point (rightfully or no) OR has been living in a cave for the past 20+ years.

You need only refer back to your point about pankration to see that this is true. Literally, it means "all powers." It was a term coined to describe a format in which different combat skills were brought to bear in a single encounter. Now, it's obviously not "all powers" literally. Nobody brought a sword. Or a bow. Or a trained bear. It was boxing and wrestling. But new formats need new names. And that's the one that someone came up with.

It's no different today. The term mixed martial arts could literally be applied to a whole range of things. But the simple truth is that it was conceived and adopted in order to refer to something specific. And that's how language works. I couldn't write someone a letter on paper, scan it into a computer, save it to a jump drive, and then mail it to its recipient, then call it "email." Even though, literally, it was a piece of electronic mail. The term "email" refers to a specific thing. And we all recognize it. That's how naming conventions work.

 

MMA is a ruleset, yes.

MMA is also a style, yes.

By figuring out the methods best designed to work under the ruleset it hybridized different styles and became a style on its own. Of course, we can get outliers like Machida and a certain capoeira dude (I forgot the name). The thing is, MMA has two popular rulesets, one nearly nonexistent due to the promotion going kaput. If you train for one ruleset, chances are you have some disadvantage in the other.

Now please, prove my assertion wrong: the longest running LEGAL MMA promotion in the world is sumo. :hat:

 

Nope - Kushti/Pelwani beats it by a mile

 

Does it have strikes?

 

OK, tap,tap. I conceed, I see the light lols. MMA is what we say when we want to talk about the martialarts we use in the UFC, ok fair enough.
I can accept it.

 

Im glad you came round lol. The conversation was good though and I think it helped a lot of people understand what's its all about and where the line is drawn. A healthy debate is always a good thing and it certainly made me think

I do agree with the essence of what you have been saying about the rich history of 'mixing martial arts'. As each generation discovers things it's easy for them to think they have created something new when often it's just a rebranding of what went before. The 'yoof' often need to be kept in check lol

MMA is an example of something slightly different, not vastly original but worth looking at as a seperate entity for all the reasons outlined previously in this thread.

I have to say though folks I'm amazed the debate stayed so civil despite strong and opposing opinions. Pats on the back all round

 

I don't think I've ver been on a thread that concluded like this....

 

It's the correct decision. It's become a sport/art in it's own right from the ruleset and because of its popularity.

 

To some its simple, to others they desire to go into a literal context

It is the same way with labeling anything

 

I think for historical context it's worth mentioning that in the UK, arguably one of the first to try to tactically combine stand up,clinch and ground was Steve Morris who ran a notorious gym in Earlam street, london from the early 70's to the early 80's. It was an open gym for any stylist to train at and also an open challenge was offered for anyone who wanted to fight. Striking was incorporated with grappling,mainly from judo and wrestling, and there were very few rules at times in these fights and they could be finished standing or on the ground. Probably more no holds barred or anything goes than MMA. I think most within martial who knew of it thought it was nuts until the early UFC' s, after which people were more open to the approach and so Steve's ideas became more universal and he appeared again often being asked to teach, leading to the mistaken belief he was a Goju karate guy that changed to MMA. Still teaching and developing and ahead of the game at 71.

 

I think you'll find Barton-Wright came up with the modern MMA approach (judo with boxing and even stick approach) independently before that.

it's nothing new. its just the term now encompasses a training method directed towards MMA promotional fights.

saying that. an old fella i went to uni with told me that they used to practice judo and kickboxing together after national judo competitions as a bit of a joke and most people he trained with on national squads had crossed extensively in their youth

 

Yes - they competed originally under open format Malla Yuddah and even though that has fallen from favor and Kushti is more common there are still moves akin to sumo slaps

So your assertion = disproved

 

I would certainly also hope that people dont believe that "MMA" is the only MMA that people use in MMA events. Check out warrior JUjitsu in warrensburg missouri which is my home town, they arnt an MMA school but they do MMA, and have several fighters in the semi pro circuits both male and female. Also worth noteing that the college here in town is a blue chips wrestleing school with a few nationally ranked competators. Dont see how I could have just made any sense but Im trying the new method here. And before you dis the warrior Jujitsu school be forwarned that the owner trains with and knows Chuck Lidell's trainer...Just sayin.

 

OFF TOPIC: the slaps arent even slaps, they're just grab feints.
im unsure whether the change from mall yuddah to kushti was because of foreign rule (and the banning of weapons may have included other combat forms) or because it mimicked muay boran into muay thai with regional and national competitions when states became more connected.

ON TOPIC: why is the term MMA "the ants " in so many proverbial "pants"?

 

Jeeeez...know your history folks!!! It's all about this man. Nobody or nofink else matters.



(That's really the biggest photo of him I could find with his classic trousers on).

 

Well since you actually did your home work like a good boy I will drop some real knowledge on you. First and foremost is the fact that the system Ive worked in the longest was developed by a millitary collegue of Mr. Fairbairns, in fact the book is called Kill or be killed and you are right that some/not all of the techniques were implimented into the special operations hand to hand system. I would further like to point out that it is rare to hear anyone with any real knowledge of that system talk about it...
So this collegue of Mr.Fairbairns used a system he called combat Karate, he taught it at a college to the members of his community I believe it was also a college credit because my Sensi first met him while he was still a professor at university. My Sensi is now the head of the combat martial arts association and a 10th degree BB, however the name of the system has changed once again and is now called Zanshin Karate.

Also worth note is the fact that the UFC denied the request of several groups of mixed martial artists to compete in early events...Hmmm?

 

Aside from the widely publicized rejection of the Dog Brothers (documentation of which can be viewed on their website), who are we talking about here?

 

Bart Vale's mullet for the win!

 

I've heard of a few people getting turned away, I'd be damned I I could remember their names though.

 

Well there was a guy and I know his name but I cant use it here, Im not sure hed like that. Anyway he was a student of my Sensi's Sensi and he was turned away from the ufc, how and why I cant remember but my thinking about it is certainly done through my glasses if you know what I mean.