What throws does Hapkido favor in the clinch? Do you guys study the clinch?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by wires, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    I was not told to drop anything regarding Renzo Gracie.
    Your MrTruth,as you called him was a Guy who Heard that Renzo did not Break his knee,He Reinjured it in the street altercation.
    (LOL,Doing the Same stupid Move)

    Wasn't I the one who posted that I could not remember what Pride event Renzo on that he was to fight in and ended up as a commentator on instead with a cast on his leg.

    Hear Renzo Himself Talk about Breaking his knee and How he did it during an attempted shoot to the attackers legs on the streets of NY on
    Pride ,Bushido III.
    Wasn't that where another poster on that Forum said it was MasL?

    Now you claim you never posted your rank?LOL
    Now you claim Black Tag,LOL
    Remember I told you I read ALL the pages of crap on that ITF Forum.
    You said You got to Red Belt in TKD and for your next promotion you were supposed to break A BOARD and Failed.
    (what was the rank structure when/where you trained,Red to black or Red to BROWN then to Black??LOL)
    You had hinted that you trained in the 70's,UKTF,did they have TAGS Then?? LOL
    (I don't think so,lol)

    You did not get promoted and you then began to reevaluate TKD,the People running it and the requirements.

    You said why is Breaking so Important it is not needed for the street and you then set about to hitting a hanging bag at your local Club/Center.
    (are we playing word games now with the term Leisure center?)

    You didn't even have the follow through and or Mindset to make it to Black Belt.
    I have never Failed anything in my life and I have done alot,unlike yourself.

    You are the Master of research,Thank God for Computers.
    You are THEORY ,No Fact that is why you quote and tell of history as you could not tell/post of practical use or applications of TKD or any Fighting art.

    Do the People on the threads you post on here know you are a Nobody,an OLD Colored Belt,LOL?
    (you try to come across as ranked with an authority others should respect right? Like when you tried that crap on me on the ITF forum,LOL)

    I see you have established your garbage ways on this site as you have on other sites,people already asking for threads to be closed due to you.

    Wonder how long you will last here.

    How many forums you been kicked off of??

    Remember as people who remember you from the ITF Forum have told you,these sites are not like there,you will post your garbage for so long then you will be Gone.

    Hey you came on this thread
    Why not tell us about throws favored in a Clinch or anything you have done or dream of doing in a Clinch in a Real Fight?
    (We will never hear a point of view on a practical application question,will we?LOL)

    Still using the free computer at the Library?
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2008
  2. MasL

    MasL Banned Banned

    LOL same old JimH

    I think you've got your wires crossed about my rank JimH. Seriously don't worry about it. Nothing you've said makes sense to me. I took black tag after not bothering about grading for many years. Mainly to go on the black belt seminars with Rhee. I thought they would offer something different. They didn't really. And even that was many years ago.

    I don't understand your point about breaking. I've always been pro-breaking. I just think hitting a heavy bag is a better demonstration of power. Is that clearer?

    I've always said I'm nobody special lol.

    I don't think you need a particular mindset to get a black belt these days. I consider myself beyond that level anyway. Why wouldn't I be? I train every day lol, the same as I've done for many, many years. Quite a narrow minded view you have JimH with regard to belts,etc.

    I wasn't thrown off the two main ITF forums. Nor did I receive any warnings at all. And both were moderated. OK the second one ceased moderation. Doesn't alter the fact that when I first posted there it was and I had no trouble at all. The first one was always closely moderated, A number of people were asked to leave.I was not one of them. I left of my own accord after three years there. LOL

    Jimh, I'm not going to get into a flame war. However , your hypocrisy is astounding. Can I remind you that after you joined the ITF forum and I dared to disgree with your history of Hapkido, daito ryu etc you actually told me that if we met I would need an ambulance to take me to the hospital. The proper example of forum conduct I'm sure.

    After that your comments became even more unpleasant. your disdain for foreigners working in your "Irish" deli and your unacceptable remarks you made about my family (which were explicitly racist). Were just a couple of examples.

    Some time later you stated you were coming to the UK and that we should meet. The whole tone of this was that you were going to cause me some form of bodily harm. Up on realising that I couldn't care less about how big you are, how tough you think you are, or how many road rage incidents you've had. you seemed to change your tune.

    I requested that you give me the time and location of the seminar you claimed you were doing and that I would be there. You refused point blank. I asked several time. You refused. You claimed I would "spoil" the seminar. I stated quite clearly I would do no such thing. You still refused.

    So JimH for all your talk when you had ample opportunity to meet me you turned it down.

    Not my fault is it. You could have found out all you wanted to about me at that seminar you came to our fair shores to conduct.

    JimH try to rid yourself of the disdain you have for BJJ. It's starting to look like some kind of complex.

    As a master of combat hapkido you should be setting an example.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  3. MasL

    MasL Banned Banned


    here is part of the post from "the Truth": NB "this forum" refers to the ITF one

    "I am a long-time Renzo Gracie student and am actually good friends with Renzo. I would like to start off by saying that the misinformation and misunterstanding on this forum is PAINFUL.

    JimH, You are spreading rumors that and misinformation that you neither have proof of, nor understand. For instance:

    I would also point out that if a UFC/pride competitor forgets he is on the street and goes to take the opponent to the ground and fails,and breaks his knee cap ,what does that say about all those who talk of going to the ground in real life who have never done it on hard surface no less concrete.

    Renzo was involved in an altercation and his kneecap did break, which he didn't realize until well after the fight. However, he did NOT hit his knee on the concrete doing a takedown. Renzo was weeks out of ACL replacement sugery and the kneecap was weakened due to the surgical process. This is common after ACL surgery. Just the simple stress on the knee during a shoot (in which the knee did not hit the ground) split the patella. Renzo was still able to easily defeat his attackers and went on his way. This is also confirmed by other people I know who were present at the time of the altercation.

    Much later on, the knee swelled up and he realized that the patella broke. His surgeon confirmed that this is common after ACL surgery. Any type of action, where stress is placed upon the legs could accomplish this break after ACL surgery, such as running or jogging.

    So, to clarify, Renzo did not "forget that he was in the street", nor did his knee ever hit the concrete. His art was very effective and he was able to subdue his attackers and go home to his family.

    Again My point on the Gracies is that they Fought in the street to develop their art,the sons compete in the ring ,the sons have not fought in the street.

    Once again, you are grossly misinformed and are continuing to spread misinformation. "The sons" you speak of actualy grew up fighting in the street. The streets of Rio De Janeiro, are quite rough. Renzo, himself has been involved in countless street fights growing up, as have his brothers and cousins. It's part of growing up in the region, especially when you have a name for yourself. The art of BJJ was originally intended for the street and it was refined there. This is the art that Renzo and his family have developed and refined themselves through various altercations.

    Renzo has been bitten, people have attempted to eye gouge him, scratch him, hit him with weapons, etc, etc. He and his family are not strangers to these tactics. BJJ, as it was originally developed is designed to deal with tactics such as these. People often forget that if one is able to control their opponent on the ground, that they will have a better position from which they can use these very same tactics."

    Perhaps you could stop quoting your version of this story now?

    Just be happy with your combat hapkido.
  4. MasL

    MasL Banned Banned


    My only purpose on this thread was to correct your misleading claims regarding bjj. I have now done that.

    Thank you.
  5. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Sport Bjj is not the best MA for the street, that's not to imply a master like Renzo can't handle himself very well.

    However against two people it's not too good and against weapons it's also not very good.

    Bjj when used without sport limitations is better, but no Bjj black belt I know advocates going to the ground in the street.

    I think Bjj has a lot of good ground skills that are very realistic for the street, you just need to have a teacher who understands the street vs. sport and they'll show you.
  6. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    On ITF you said your rank was Red Belt.
    (Didn't get promoted because you didn't break the board)
    If you did not fail the break ,why did you stop TKD?
    Why did you go back later to TAKE a Black Tag?

    On here you said Black Tag.
    You said you studied in the 70's ,No tags in the 70's
    Since I pointed that out you now say you took a Black Tag,Many Years Later?
    (Guess that Means you did not earn it)
    Your training consists of Punching a Bag ,period.

    Again the Post you put up says what I said it did.
    The Person said Renzo had the injury and reinjured it.

    What move did Renzo make to Reinjure his knee?
    A Shoot

    What Happened to THE Attacker?
    He got away
    (I wonder how/why when Renzo didn't hit the ground or notice the injury straight away?)

    Renzo was in,and had just completed training at his gym ,in preparation for Pride Budhido III.
    (Wonder why the knee went out in a shoot on the street and not in training or repeated hitting of the Mat in the weeks leading up to the street incident)

    Again go to
    Pride ,Bushido II and hear Renzo tell the story himself.
    I watched it on TV when broadcast ,heard and saw it when he said what happened.

    Sorry Mas,you haven't straightened me out.

    The Gracie Sons Fought on the Streets of Rio,LOL.
    That is the story,not the facts as laid out by Helio.
    Mas you better go read the Materials written by Helio Gracie,he Says,THEY NEVER FOUGHT IN THE STREET,ONLY HE ,Helio fought on the street,
    The Boys,he says only Fought RING,LOL.
    (Renzo has had eyes gouged,and yet he still has eyes?)

    You are also wrong about my likes and dislikes.
    I have never said I disliked MMA or GBJJ
    I said that if one says it/they are street usable then it must be trained as such,not as for sport,for reasons well recorded by me here and else where.
    (just as I said it was useless for the US Army Combatives)

    I Have trained in MMA and have trained in GBJJ with Carlson Gracie Jr.
    I have also trained with an Instructor in Reality Based training who trains with Renzo.
    I have also trained with a Black Belt in the Machado System of BJJ.
    (I dislike MMA/BJJ so much according to you ,wonder why I,train in it?)

    The tools of MMA and BJJ are ,if trained properly,usable.
    If trained a MAJORITY of the Time for sport then sport tactics are what will be used.
    (Sorry I have said this many,mnay times,on many ,many forums)

    Your attempt to put me straight on ITF was because I thought your name was MasI,not MasL and you also disliked the way I wrote in regard to you on the forum,so you told Marvin to STRAIGHTEN ME OUT,to Tell me to have Respect for you on the forum,and I would not and do not.
    (Sorry I do not owe respect to my Juniors who have never earned a Dan Rank,taught,or ever used their art in sport or street,they have nothing to offer,as in your case)

    The ITF forum shut down because of your crap ,(they did not monitor it)
    You were thrown off/Banned from FightingArts.com,NO?

    You offered to meet me some where?
    You mean when I said I was coming to the UK,and would meet you if you wanted as I would be training with several Instructors,and you said you would notify authorities to stop me from entering the country.LOL

    I love your stories.
    You have the correct version of that discussion?
    Put it up so you can look as stupid as on the rest of your straightening me out,lol.

    The corrected version of of Renzo's fight sure straightened me out .LOL

    Now that you have corrected me ,you have nothing else to post about,I guess ,as you know almost Zero of application of any art.

    Hey Mas what throws or moves do you use when in a clinch?
  7. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    American HKD,
    I agree ,sport BJJ is not Best for the Street,the Gracies agree with that ,as their new ads tell us the same thing.(Sport and Street are two different things)

    It is not because the Tools are not useable ,it is because the rules Limit use ,that becomes limited on the street.

    I am sure Renzo and others can handle themselves on the street,just went to sport move that day.

    NO MMA or BJJ player advocates going to the ground,but that is their first move and or they attempt to take the fight to the ground as quickly as possible,street or Ring,as the SPORT Training takes over the Self Defense training.

    Quote Stuart:
    "I think Bjj has a lot of good ground skills that are very realistic for the street, you just need to have a teacher who understands the street vs. sport and they'll show you. "

    I Agree 100 %
  8. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    The Gracies now have a Street Combatives course:
    Gracie Combatives Instructor Certification Course.
    It consists of 34 techniques learned from fights family members had on the streets and taken from their over 700 techniques in their SYSTEM.

    Here are some of the STREET COMBATIVES.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaLIJ_vlOYM"]Championsway GC Demo - YouTube[/ame]

    As we see these are Ground Fights.
    Great Moves.
    Great for Ground Survival.

    All 34 Techniques in their Combatives Course(Street Combatives) are on the Ground.

    Think their mindset in a Street Fight is on NOT GOING TO THE GROUND?
  9. MasL

    MasL Banned Banned

    LOL I don't think you want me to leave do you JimH.

    It's funny how you remember some things but conveniently forget others.

    The grading thing was part of a debate about...gradings. I stated that back in the day in the UKTA the major criteria if one passed or failed was the breaking. I then freely admitted I had failed red belt simply because I failed a break. I stated it wasn't particularly difficult and that 99 times out of a hundred I would have done it. At that time I didn't so I failed. The next time I did and I passed. Big deal. I also commented on how UKTA seniors such a Teh Hock Aun, considered to be the very best in the UKTA and the instructor at Rhee's Academy also failed for the same reason. He was failed his 4th dan twice for not breaking and he was considered by many to be the best TKDoist in the UK. JimH I don't have any hang ups about it and offered the information freely. Since then it's something you've often twisted to used as an insult. Nothing changes does it. How many times have I had to offer this same reply to you on the subject. Yet you still repeat it.

    As for the rest of your somewhat rambling post. I truly am speechless. It is actually the funniest thing I've read all week.

    JimH I offered to meet you at your seminar. You refused. Anything else is a lie. The notion that I would try and get you refused entry to the country is hilarious. Are you serious? LOL. I can just see the telephone conversation:

    Me: Helol is that the Home Office?

    Home Office Official: Yes

    Me: Good morning

    HOO: Good morning....

    HOO: What can I do for you?

    Me: I'd like someone refused entry to the county please.

    HOO: Err ok, can you give me some details...

    Me: Well there's this internet forum..

    HOO: an...internet forum......

    Me: Yeah, that's right. And there's this guy on it, JimH. I think he might be trouble.

    HOO: Do you consider this man to be a danger?

    Me: Only if you take his parking space.

    HOO: so he has anger issues?

    Me: Yeah

    HOO: errm.... ok...could you give me his name please?

    Me: JimH

    HOO: What does the "H" stand for?

    Me: I don't know , he won't tell me.

    HOO: Errm ok, so how would we identify this person?

    Me: Well he's middle aged, about sixteen stone and he may appear a little red in the face.

    HOO: I see..well thank you for your call....

    Me: You're a civil servant and I haven't finished yet.

    HOO: There's more?

    Me: Yeah, he stares at men..in the park

    HOO: ............ he stares at men? ........ in the park?

    Me: that's what I said. Single men.

    HOO: .... ..... .... single men?

    Me: yeah single men in the park. See, everyone knows that a single man alone in the park is obviously up to no good. So he makes eyes contact with them to let them know he's seen them and that their actions are under scrutiny. It's a security thing.

    HOO: But in the UK, if you're walking in the park and a man starts staring at you you automatically think..

    Me: I know, I know

    Long pause

    HOO: Leave it with me and I'll see what I can do

    Me: Cheers mate.
  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    MasL: Remember me asking you not to post personal insults and to avoid rehashing old arguments from other forums? That goes for all of MAP, not just the TKD board.

    JimH: You've taken the point about personal attacks, but the same goes regarding long dead arguments from other forums. I don't want any of MAP's boards to descend into a "he said, she said" tit for tat flame war regarding arguments that did not even occur here.

    As a general point please keep all points here and now, and make them without resort to personal attack.

  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Mitch:

    The original question was posed to Hapkido community members Re: "the clinch". Seems like this has devolved into yet one more bicker session about "he said/she said".

    Does anyone have anything for a migraine? :topic:

    Best Wishes,

  12. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Most of the Bjj people who want to expand outside the sport usually move towards MMA and train in Kick boxing or Muay Thai to round themselves off.

    The problems is both of the those systems are still sport oriented stand-up.
    Which stills lacking the weapon training or multiple attacks etc...

    I also noticed some Bjj schools doing Krav Maga for their realistic aspect of training.
  13. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    Let's see if I can bring this thread back full circle to something relevant to Hapkido, eh?

    I was flipping through this book at Borders not too long ago just out of curiosity. I was surprised that a lot of the techniques illustrated in the book looked extremely "Hapkido-ish." In fact, a couple of them were exactly the same as techniques I had learned in my HKD training. This isn't all that surprising considering both BJJ and HKD are rooted in JJJ. (Enough acronyms for you?)

    So, BJJ does have stand-up self defense techniques, similar to how Judo has gun defense techniques. The only problem is that you're going to be hard-pressed to find a BJJ or Judo school that actually trains these things.
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yeah, but honestly, thats a chronic problem across the MA spectrum. People talk a much tougher game than they want to play. Remember when kick-boxing was all the rage and TAE-BO came on the scene? There were plenty of people offering "kick-boxing" but the classes that failed were the programs where people actually had to train full-contact--- which meant taking as good as you gave. People liked the IDEA of doing full-contact but actually having to condition oneself meant dealing with sore muscles, ache-y joints, and the occasional shiner or puffy lip. I find the same thing a lot of times in Hapkido where there are actually schools that DO NOT teach "breakfalls" because people don't like the idea of falling-down!! True story!

    Just people being people. :confused:

    Best Wishes,

  15. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    I too have seen the books on Street Self Defense offered by some of the BJJ people and yes they do have a similar approach,to Hapkido,in the Books.

    I am wondering WHY,in a Street Self Defense course/Comabtives Instructor,they DO NOT Include any of the Stand Up techniques?

    I Do not Know anyone who takes GBJJ/MBJJ/BJJ/MMA around where I live teaching ANY Stand Up Self Defense

    I also agree there are Many MA schools Across the Board Offering NO CONTACT MA and or MINIMAL CONTACT MA.

    This is what happens in a Time when people want to learn but do not want to get Injured,Black and Blue or Bloodied,but they want to believe they will be able to Survive an encounter.

    This is why the New Sales Pitch,at least where I live in NY, is FITNESS through Martial Arts with Self Defense being a Small Side Benefit.
    (Not like the training in the end of the 60's through the 70's,change seemed to begin in the early 80's when all that gear started hitting the Scene)
  16. dortiz

    dortiz Valued Member

    One of my teachers early in my life asked me about why I wanted to join. It was a loose group but they trained for fighting. I watched and knew this is how I wanted to train. When I finnally got in at the first class he socked me in the forehead. Nothing devastating but hard enough to ring a bell. As I stared at him he looked at me and said rule number one, be prepared to get hit. You will get hit. Thats fighting.
    Some great training followed.
  17. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    I just heard maybe just hear say that an LA Fittness will offer MMA.

    Now seriously can you see the arobic crowd doing real MMA one punch or bloodly nose they're be suing the club.

    For better or worse MMA is a hard contact sport not Tai-bo!
  18. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    The simple fact is that in arts like BJJ and Judo, it's much easier to go "all out" in your training. (I also take Judo.) Though injuries do occur, it's less risky than if you were to go all out with strikes. If you tried to train full contact striking every day, then it would be a matter of time before dementia pugilistica sets in. Not even MMA guys do that.

    It doesn't have to be either or. You can spar "hard" contact with pads and still get a good approximation of what real fighting is like. I've never been knocked out, but I've been hit in the face hard enough to know that getting hit in the face hurts and it can disorient you.
  19. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    Yes Bjj is one of the few system that full force can be used.

    The main reason for that is that they work to position themselves in a way that's neutralizes you and systematically tighten up their position until they can get a submission.

    I don't think this can be done standing the same way and the main reason they can train with higher resistance.
  20. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    Judo,Jujitsu,Hapkido,Aikido,all use the concept of closing the Distance(clinch range),Disrupting Balance and using Gravity as methods of applications.

    Judo,sport, and later forms of Aikido use minimal or Zero Strikes to weaken/soften an opponent.
    They are sport and compliant applications of a Jujitsu based Fighting Art.
    Both of these arts rely on respect and technique applications to gain advantage

    Jujitsu,combat Judo and Hapkido include kicks,hand strikes to Injure/Weaken/Soften the opponent while we close the gap to clinch/stand Up Grappling Range to use our art,and take the opponent out of commission by pain compliance,Breaking,injuring or downing an opponent and finishing them.

    Judo,sport and its off shoot of BJJ,sport, use grounding and Gravity to submit an opponent through Pain Compliance applications Only.

    Jujitsu,Combat Judo and Hapkido use Grounding ,in terms of the opponent being taken to the ground,as a method of application,not an End result for Both Combatants.

    In Judo,sport and BJJ,sport,the Goal is to Go to the Ground and tie the opponent up,trying to gain a Top Position,to gain a hold or a lock to submit,while Fighters will stay on the ground and work from the ground for extended periods.

    Jujitsu,combat Judo and Hapkido do not want to go to the Ground and Work from the ground.
    In Jujitsu,combat Judo and Hapkido if one goes to the ground with the opponent ones Goal is to Eliminate the threat,using techniques which are the same as stand up and or any means desired to inflict damage,get a reaction and regain standing Position.
    Jujitsu,combat Judo and Hapkido do not want to Stay on the Ground any longer than needed ,no less an Extended Period.
    (Ground Survival over Ground Fighting)

    While sport allows more contact and energy exchange,the rules and the goals are different than one would want on the Street.
    Sport most times use opponents of Near Equal Skill and or Near Equal Weight or Height,not intoxicated and no weapons,many times the opponent has been studied or is known.

    Jujitsu,Combat Judo and Hapkido have a very different goal,if taught as intended for street Self Defense and not sport,so the ability to have a high degree of energy exchange are limited as our response Goals are Very Different than Sport.
    Street Does Not allow for one to know the Opponents Skill Level,the Opponents Weight and or Height,mental capacity and or physical state (Drunk or on Drugs) and wether they are armed or not.

    Any and All training is Good if used for the participants needs and goals.
    If One intends to use their Skills for Self Defense then One needs to Implement them as such a MAJORITY of their Training Time.
    If Ones Goals are Self Defense and One engages in sport a majority of the Time then Sport will be the initial and most likely full on application in the Street.

    If one uses sport and adheres to the Rules and Appications as intended ,one can luck out and apply the Sport techniques,Tie up on the Ground and submit the opponent,if that works Great.

    If one uses the arts with out the Rules and employs the Art as intended with Vicious intent to injure ,create Pain,down the opponent and move off then one is more likely to survive an encounter and also deal with a possible entry of a second opponent or a third and or the introduction of a weapon or weapons.

    These are just My Opinions based on why I train and the Mindset I believe is needed to survive a Street encounter over Sport applications.

    This is why as to the topic on this thread:
    I would NOT employ a hoist and throw of an attacker.
    I probably would not employ any throw,as attackers on the street rarely allow themselves to be thrown.

    I would employ locks and direct takedowns,knees,low kicks,elbows,balance disruption and Breaks to Ground and injure the attacker as quickly as possible.

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