What skill/technique are you learning right now?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Nachi, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You are correct. What he meant was there's nothing mystical and in fact we do use a bear paw in HAVOC.
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Can you show me a picture of a bear claw position? I am curious!
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's no different to anything you already know.

    I've heard it called leopard paw too.

    In fact during training with Hannibal on Saturday I mentioned some similarities with some CLF movements I've seen Icefield do.

    Bear 2.jpg
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  4. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Liston had a laser guided 84 inch jab, and an +11.0" ape index. Almost a whole foot. He still holds the record because of how he combined his index with incredible legwork and bodyweight control.

    15 Boxing Champions With Incredible Ape Indices

    Some of my favorite shots of Liston casually throwing these, with total control.


  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What's mystical about your tiger palm?
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If we're talking Sonny Liston then this is the best thing on him...hell it's one of the best things ever. Gives me chills when I watch it.

    I particularly like the sentence that trying skipping for 6 minutes will soon show what "ails you" (in other words where you are weak).

    When I teach the jab I reference Sonny Liston's ram-rod piston of a jab compared to Ali's flicker back fist stinger. How both are "jabs" (or front hand punches at least) but serve different purposes and have different body mechanics and commitment. And how a fighter can modify a jab in use as needed and how a truly great fighter has more than one way of throwing any technique (but will fall back on tendencies).
    Grond likes this.
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    As someone who has practiced southern Chinese monastic 5 animal kung fu for over 3 decades I can happily say that there is nothing mystical about any of the striking hands.

    Hannibal was taking a chirpy dig at arts that are not his own. I suspect that is in part because there is a lot of trash (both mystical and pseudo scientific) in many martial arts. In part because that denigrating other peoples art is a great way to sell your own, something that Bruce lee was a master at. In part because Hannibal is justifiably proud that what he teaches is free of mystical and pseudo scientific trash.

    I like all the videos posted by Simon on these subject. It is essentially what I have been specifically playing with over the last year. For me the thing to remember is that all physical movements are a compromise when fighting. The speaker in the hardest punch video made some good points about maximising power with the hips and legs But did not mention any of the trade offs. Nor did he mention that in the actual application of the strike he was not using the motion he initially compared to as javelin throwing and was supplementing hip power with a back extender mechanic.

    in my opinion the speaker also grossly miss represented the function and application of the Hekate hand in karate. I am fortunate to occasionally train with an old school karate guy who’s practical understanding of the ramifications of the hikate mechanic have greatly increased my understanding of power generation.
  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Correction i was confused by the motion of the fist on the short power punches. . he is striking with the javelin mechanic as he describes at first. He has an interesting timing on the connection between the arm and the shoulder that moderates the movement of the arm allowing him to imitate arm movement independent from the back movement. a neutral shoulder would be moving as the back moves. but he diverts the movement into tension in his back allowing him to delay arm movement and then use the tension to fire the arm. so by the time the strike hits he is aliened to cope with the reactive force.

    my other points still stand however.
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    As an example of why I argue that the presenter miss characterises the use of the hikate hand. here is an example of an olympic athlete using the hikate hand in throwing the javelin.

  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    How is he "using" the hikite hand to throw? That's not what I see at all.
    I see the javelin throw as an extreme "double hip" with a telegraphed run up. The front hip become the pivot (rather than the centre) and the body mass is thrown around that hinge.
    Imho the throwing action throws the rear hand forward around the front hip and because the other shoulder falls out side the pivot point (as in men in particular the shoulders are wider than the hips) that arm is forced back (a bit).
    The traditional argument for power generation using hikite is that pulling the arm itself back creates power by forcing the other hand forwards (equal and opposite and all that). But that's erroneous I think.
    Power comes from the hip rotation (which can be centralised or more in one hip or the other) and movement of body weight and the non striking arm moves back as a result of that and is not a cause of it.
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    My karate mate does not restrict the use of the hikatae hand to a central pivot. He has never stated that the above explanation is ‘the’ reason for the hikate hand.
    He frequently uses the hikate hand combined with the front hip as the pivot (rather than the centre) and the body mass is thrown around that hinge. He has a subtle understanding and spectacular application of the use of pretention to load strikes.
    So why do javelin throwers extend the opposite arm just before the throw? Can you find me an international javelin thrower that does not extend the opposite arm just before throwing?

    I personally argue that the hikate action of the arm in pre-tensioning the shoulders back, and core muscles plays a key role in power development and delivery of the throw. and also of power generation for strikes.
  12. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    So why do javelin throwers extend the opposite arm just before the throw? Can you find me an international javelin thrower that does not extend the opposite arm just before throwing?

    i agree that the opposite arm acts as a counter balance at the start of the throw. however if you look at the mechanic of the tension of the arm way more is going on than as a dead counterweight.

    here is an example of the hikate hand in baseball

    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter


    Hannibal made a bit of a disparaging dig with that term at traditional hand position in the otherwise good clip Simon posted. I used tiger claw as an example of a particularly useful traditional hand position. If you watch the clip, it will make sense.
  14. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    That was a sweet video, thanks. I especially loved the end, more than a minute spent just on Liston jumping rope. I can't stress jumping rope enough, as an exercise for life as well as all sports and martial arts.

    Let's talk about "what ails you", as a middle aged boxer with a decent amount of practical experience, this one scene of Liston robed, in the ring, screamed at me. Especially as a man, since women don't have as big a problem with this. Work those hips.

    Your hips and waist are everything, but by your 40's with a male body you're just not going to have the hip flexibility you once did. And yet it is quintessential to boxing and really every martial art I can think of. You have GOT to rotate those hips wide every day, as much as possible, especially if you sit a lot. Otherwise you're going to lose everything that associates with hip flex...speed, power, grace, elevation change, squatting, bending, but especially avoiding Sonny Liston monster jabs. If you don't want your face meeting fist, you need to be able to work those hips on command like you are trying to ride a bull.

    So the skill I am working on right now is exactly what's seen in this 3 second bit below. We can't get his Ape Index, but almost anybody can get Sonny Liston hips with practice.

    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  15. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Somebody explained this to me once but essentially your arm weighs about 8 lbs on average, and the javelin is typically about 2lbs, so running up there are about 10+ lbs of weight behind you, dragging you back, so putting your other arm ahead of you balances you upon the run up (you are moving your center of mass forward), and then provides a rotational mechanism where the 8lb forward arm slings back and the 10+lb javelin arm flies forward. The key to it all is the "block" he describes where you basically use your cleats to stop your body hard as that hip and arm rotation sails the javelin forward. At that point it's just a matter, as he says, of making sure the grip is maintained, and the point is aimed correctly.

    It's kind of like that drumming doll in Karate Kid 2, now that I think about it, which is really funny because in this scene Miyagi says some of his best lines about this exact subject.

    "best block, no be there". So true.

    "Daniel: Is there a counter punch in the technique?"

    "Ask drum".


  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It's not that. The drumming doll has a central pivot and one arm is going back as the other goes forward (like a sitting stance type punch). As such you're going to be losing power out the back. That's exactly what the double hip is avoiding. Trying to put the pivot in one hip and having as much body weight committed around that pivot as possible.
    In terms of throwing I think the other arm going out is to balance the throwing arm and provide an aiming reference point but doesn't commit much (if anything) to power generation. The legs, hips and core provide the power and the arms are along for the ride (in a kinetic chain with the arm as the last link in the chain).
    If you stand on one leg with an arm outstretched and pull it back with force it doesn't force the opposite hip/arm forwards. It actually forces the opposite hip back!
    Because the front arm is at the front of the movement, and the body is full committed (in a throw or a double hip punch), the arm isn't actually moving "back" much at all but staying in place while the rest of the body catches up.
    David Harrison likes this.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I did watch the clip, that's why your reaction confused me.

    If your tiger claw isn't mystical, why would you find that disparaging?

    Though, the action you describe of digging your thumb into someone's eye socket from a palm strike does sound kind of mystical, as it sounds like it would violate Newton's 3rd law. Do you know anyone who's done it?
  18. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Well the drum is an extreme example of basic hip rotation, obviously. Throwing the baseball, the javelin, a punch all operate on the same basic principles with variation like you describe. I agree it's all in the hips.

    Per the javelin forward arm, I checked and the forward arm is not for aiming at all, it's entirely for balancing and keeping the hips in the proper direction during the run up. So, individual javelin throwers tend to have their own unique style (which will change during the runup as the thrower tries to maintain their equilibrium on the turf). Very similar to how you can use your arms to balance yourself on a surfboard or skis, while your core is really doing all the power moves and loading either hip depending on the terrain.

    Here's the actual "kinetic chain" for reference. There are minor variations but this is essentially the sequence, and you can see how the hips stay square up until the block where the rotation occurs. You can sort of see how you could throw just about anything this way (ball, stick, grenade).


    [PDF] Javelin Mechanics THE GRIP. THE RUN-UP (first 6 steps) - Free Download PDF
  19. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    David if somebody implied that you hide your lack of understanding from yourself and others by dressing it up in pseudo scientific rubbish, you would find the comment disparaging.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Do you know someone that's done it then?

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