what makes an internal MA?

Well it is called an "internal" martial art because it trains the internal parts of your body to become hard and strong, and also healthy.

(well... thats what i know about it...)

 

I'll agree that other arts have internal components and internal sides to them. But there's a huge difference between going through the motions (movements) and actually practicing an IMA.

But saying that you can pick them all up in a short time is ludicris. So all the great masters wasted all that time when they could have spent a year or two and moved on?

What IVP is mentioning is a form of Chi Kung (Qi Gong) ~ Here's a tangent I don't want to get into.

 

Noticably absent from this discussion is the one thing that really does make a distinction between internal and external martial arts: Chi.

If you aren't aware of, or don't believe in your chi, which many don't, you will see no need for a distinction.

Assuming you do recognize the utilization of chi in fighting, then the distinction is that internal arts are focused on the movement of chi in the body in order to produce a desired effect, whereas external arts do not focus on that.

I'm not trying to start another one of the chi threads either, but it is important to understand that as a alleged component of internal fighting.

 

True very true, and I've been deliberately avoiding that word as it seems to be a major source of pointless arguements.

 

I can't see where I mentioned complete mastery of an art?I said IMA effectivness is relative to its apporach in training which is usually dependent on school, individual(3rd time).Effective intergration should show itself in a resaonably short period.
As Terry mentioned before,you are setting up a diatcomy, to imply superiority through difference.You believe some people just go through the motions while others actually practise "IMA"(truth).This to me seems a ludicrous belief as does placing Dead "masters" who you will never meet( and only know about through second hand culturaly translated stories) above what you have available around you.
So an old lady practiseing the stardardised 32 move Chen doesn't cultivate Qi because she has no knowledge of the fighting applications????Perhaps her school and goals are different.

Hwardo
Re: Qi
Its often translated as(amongst countless other) Vitality (relating to a healthy functioning body).It is wrong to think that what you class as Wai Jia do not generate or cultivate Qi. Yi (intent) is often argued essential to guide the Qi.Again most Nei Jia and Wai Jia styles train this(as does Boxing,swimming etc).No doubt focus differs,but this is a matter for the school, its traditions and its goals.

Any how I am well aware of the stardard perception of IMA and am trying to point out a different veiw shared by many.

 

This would depend of course on frequency and intensity of training and what you consider a reasonable time period. I'm making the assumption that the practioner is a practicing as a hobby. Maybe the choice of wording is poor but it's been coming off as "that stuff's easy what's taking you so long, you should have already learned all there is to it".

No I never claimed superiority just illustrating the difference. Your post came off as "If you haven't learned all you need to know in x months it's not worth it" Which is a very common attitude towards MA in general in the west. The internal and external arts compliment each other, Yin/Yang (2-3 rd time, I lost track).

I see people all the time that go through the motions and run through a Yang short form like a hard form kata (usually young male beginners). Why? Lack of patience.

What cultrual stories are you talking about? I'm refering to my own expiriences with MA.
I made the comment to point out that consistantly refering to IMA as "easy to learn" is insulting to all practioners of any MA (as they all contain elements of IMA). It implies that all the time spent in learning and refining the art is/was meaningless.

Huh? Even without the martial application it's still effective for health. I never implied otherwise nor did I say training purely for reasons other than self-defense are wrong (exercise, health, self improvement etc...).

What I was trying to illustrate is that if you are traning purely to fight and have need to right now IMA might not be the best choice.

The U.S. military uses BJJ for hand-to-hand combat training not because its the ultimate fighting system but because it can be used effectively with limited training (of course the more the better but...). These are some of the systems strong points. By your reasoning we should be teaching soldiers Tai Chi? (Yeah, only if we start fighting wars with swords again). Why, it takes too long, rapid development is not one of IMA strong points. External arts will almost always prepare a practitioner for fighting faster then internal arts.

 

Your right maybe I just don't communicate ideas well,as I have no idea how you read that from my posts.

This is just your assesment of other practioners,Doesn't that seem a tad arrogant to you?Their reality might be quite different.(hence the reference to you infering superiority)

Sorry,again I am not sure how you read that into my post.I didn't refer to IMA as easy to learn,although I do feel that all MA require simular dedication.If you are insulted by such a reference,then I am sure other MA people would find your sterotyping of External MA people as lacking patience just as insulting.

Understood that point,and disagreed.Its pretty clear we come from different prepectives of MA.I would say my main point is that I give more value to the training, school and individual then the style.I have found that many fundamentals, that some recognize as IMA, are common to most indepth studied fighting styles.There are more simularities then differences,whether people train them is up to them.

 

Internal Versus External
In addition to Tai Chi, Bagua and Hsing I, some of the other lesser known Internal Arts are:

# Liu He Ba Fa
# Tang Lang Chuan ( only one variant, dunno which one)
# Nine Little Heavens
# Southern White Crane
# Aikido ( the only Japanese Internal Art)
# Kul Suk Won ( Korean )
http://kuksool.home.texas.net/our_martial_art.html

# Tang Soo Do ( Korean )
http://www.tangsootao.com.au/pages/about.htm

…….and many many others I’m not aware off.


Here’s my non-comprehensive list of diffs betwn Internal & External Martial Arts:

INTERNAL

1. No stretches and warm ups
2. Reliance on Chi
3. Blending with an attack
4. Yielding / Redirect a punch, no hard blocks
5. Power comes from within
6. Mostly Relaxed
7. Fluid
8. Slow forms ( during practise)
9. Finesse
10. Indirect
11. Circular
12. Accepting what is
13. I wait for you to attack and borrow your energy
14. Acknowledging the limitations of the self
15. Winning without fighting is best
16. Hard vs Soft and Soft Vs Hard
17. Deflect a force
18. Meditative training
19. One move flows into another, a strike is rarely singular and
usually followed by 2-3 other follow up strikes to “ finish up
the attacker” Eg . Redirect,Grab, strike, Lock then Throw
20. Few High Kicks ( hence stretches not required)
21. Effect for fighting well into 70’s, enhance health & longevity



EXTERNAL:
1. Stretches and warm-ups mandatory or self injury results
2. Reliance on muscle power
3. Stopping an attack
4. Struggling / Hard blocks against a punch instead of redirection
5. Power comes from outside
6. Always Tense
7. Defined
8. Fast kata
9. Power
10. Direct
11. Linear
12. Fighting against it
13. I attack you, and rely solely on my own energy
14. Denying any vulnerabilities
15. Destroying your opponent
16. Hard Vs Hard
17. Force Vs Force
18. Pain/Endurance training
19.Moves are disjointed, and tend not to flow into next strike
20. Many High kicks , stretches required
21. Arthiritis sets in by 50, if not muscular tremors due nerve damage to “smashing one’s hands and feet”, and multiple join/ back problems

Sorry did I sound a bit biased ?
I mean to be...I came from Shaolin and now headed to Wudang

 

Bcullen,
I agree with your views . You're the man!
Many people here make comments without the benefit of having trained in External Arts ( Shaolin , Karate , TaeKwondo) and as such lack any first hand experience of the inefficiencies /inadequacies inherent to most External Martial Arts.
Their opinions are therefore at best academic.

 

LOL
Great more generalisations
Here's some more styles you might want to track down
ZiranMen, Tongbiquan, Pigua, Baji, Dagongli, Sanhuangpao, Meihuaquan, Niantui, Wushizhuang, Lianquan, Liuhebu, Xinyibu.

OMG they are all regularlly classified as Neijia.Could it be that the term Neijia is used in a less concise way in Chinese language.Yes it seems its manily westerners who place such an emphasis on the distinction.Perhaps there are linguistic and cultural misunderstandings occuring.

I would highly recommend the writing's of Wang Xiang Zhai(Yes a Chinese guy).Who was very against not only the terms of Neijia and Waijia but also the traditional master student training style of China.
Some translations can be found at
www.yiquan.com.pl

 

Discussions based around distinctions of this art and that art rarely lead to consensus, but rather further divisions. These (divisions) are inextricably brought about by the failure of the medium, by way of semantics, to adequately define the topic. The irony is that there is no way to achieve a consensus of something which is entirely personal. A Martial Art is unique to every individual; what is and is not for one person may have no relevance to another. Does this mean it is not valid? No, it is just another mans/womans path... there are no absolutes.

Train and be happy...

 

Find Peace in your Practise.Thats what it is about.
Syd
Just to be a sh*t Stirer
Theories of relativity sort of fall flat for if there is no absolute truths, then this must surely mean that there is at least One Truth,that there is no absolute Truths

I would like to say that there really is no need for a consensus,nor for people to fear divisions.Sharing different preceptions should not be seen as negative but hopefully positively expanding and questioning of your own veiws.

 

Kat,

Truth is also one of those personal things which will frequently defy any and all absolutes. The irony is that there are absolutely no absolute truths, let alone one big truth defining other kinds of truth. There is only experiential reality which may or may not be based on what is or is not true. The problem is the the idea that things that are thought to be validated are supposedly couched in concepts of truth! Words will continue to fail us until the day comes when one man can walk in another mans shoes.

BTW* Did you not get my email asking about Sun Dafa?

I agree with this sentiment from a personal perspective. The problem for me is one of prospective outcomes and probable outcomes. What is achieved when we look objectively at many of these discussions and take them to their logical ends? Most of the time people aren't discussing to broaden their horizons, but rather to reinforce a position.

Many times the discussions degenerate into something more akin to egotism than an open forum dedicated to learning and openess. Myself? I agree with your thoughts but have come to a point within myself where I am comfrotable to assert nothing much, because it's not relevant to anyone else but me. What else can be achieved other than to listen rather than speak? I find the less I say on these things the better, that's all.

Best, Syd

 

So True
Beautiful Post

 

Kat,

The e-mail I sent you mate, did you get it? I wanted to know if you knew anything about Master Sun Dafa in China Town? I don't care if you have no info, just would apreciate a confirmation either way, if you have a moment.

Best, Syd

 

This seems like a pretty silly thread. It's really easy to define internal and external martial arts!

When you practice inside a dojo, dojang, kwoon, or any other enclosed space, you are doing an internal martial art. When you practice outside in an empty lot, park, driveway, or in your own backyard, that's an external martial art. Simple!

The only real confusion sets in when you practice under a gazebo. Internal or external?? Will we ever agree?

 

Ahh.. No. Internal and external martial arts have nothing to do with practicing inside or outside. I'm no expert at this, but I know that it is not named after the practice place.

 

Apparently they don't have sarcasm in Canada. Sorry, my mistake!

 

It's okey. We all are humans and make mistakes.

 

No confusion at all. White crane is considered a soft-hard style vis a vis an internal-external style. And we trained under a big tree a few times thus keeping up appearances