It only takes me months to toughen up students then they are given challenges to learn themselves with occasional instruction. All of the original shihan told students to join them in training NOT to expect to be taught step by step.
I said it only takes me a month or so to TOUGHEN up a student many of whom are dan grades other arts.I said nothing about how long their training in the art shall last. And sadly there are many who are NOT training correctly no matter how long, and when they have to spend time/years in areas where they have to fight even when they may wish not to. The result is not the one I would wish for them.
you just know.....to run screaming in fear? To just fall on the floor ahead of time.....to kick him in the nads....
-- If it was up to me, I'd like to take the challenge to be toughened up over 6 or 7 months, maybe a year an a half...why rush things? Besides if one month of tough training is good, then 7 must certainly be better (to a point that is). Problem is that many people don't stick around an aikido dojo long enough to find out...if it is too tough, they leave, not tough enough they get bored...sorry to say, it is not a dining establishment that caters to the needs of the individual (as I'm sure you already know), and many individuals here just don't like that fact. I don't know about Scottland, but here in the US, it takes about 10 or so years just to build your dojo up to around 25-30 students. And some of those may have to leave, move, give up, don't like the instructor, go off to the military or university (if you have kids / teens in your class), or perhaps thier wives just want them around the house more...excuses, excuses, excuses (again I am probably not telling you anything new, just elaborating a bit for other MAP readers)... most of them here in the states arn't mature enough to be put through the course to gain anything of value to begin with, let alone attempt at toughening them up (there are a few dojo in which a certain instructor(s) throws his white belts just as hard as his black belts...very rarely does he have females in his classes, never explains a word...that will toughen them up once they recover from their sprains, tears, strains. Only says do it like this, and shows them how he does it, often times pretty brutally...I'm surprised there are not more injuries than the minor ones I've seen.) ..., most of them here in the states arn't mature enough to be put through the course to gain anything of value to begin with, let alone attempt at toughening them up, and they might even look at bowing as something they would never do (if you can believe that). You are lucky to have higher ranked dans from other arts comming to crosstrain with you, but even in the dojo I have been to, once they begin aikido, it is customary for them to return to wearing a white belt as they are beginning aikido, and many would have trouble doing that, even if it was just symbolically. Very few stay, and actually continue with their practice, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years... I will agree with you, and the shihan you mention that I have always looked at it as "join me in training." In fact I love looking around and seeing the ones that have decided to join. Not because I teach, or one of the other instructors with more knowledge than I teach, but becasue they have decided to a) join in, and b) take responsibility for their own training. Perhaps one of the reasons that some choose not to join with us in training is that maybe they have been to one of these sad, and incorrect dojo you refer to. I do know that many more have moved on to other parts of their lives that for whatever reasons, and that those that have stayed after 10+ years are starting to look pretty good, and that those in our group that train together who have crossed trained in other martial arts with totals of 25+ years, 30-35 years, or the ones that I have trained with who have 40+ years or those shihan that have trained with Osensei that I have crossed paths with, all have something of value to offer, and I have "taken" a little bit from each of them.
Answer to your first question about toughening up. I shall know within the first few sessions if it is possible and mainly if the dedication and attitude to TRULY learn aikido is there. If not I shall tell the person to leave if of course he does not decide to leave after a few minutes. Aikido has become weakened by those who wish to create businesses or associations with large numbers..then the numbers and "grades" become more important than true training. proper training is so demanding that few stay . the seminar below was when I was invited to present aikido to karateka,jujutsu,judo,MMA. Thai chi and a number of aikido groups other students. It was most enjoyable except for one thing. One "aikido" group from that town left after our first demonstration of ara waza.fighting techniques.Rather than join in on the mixed training, The one thing that keeps me training is the existance of the Yoseikan and Yoshinkan groups and the VERY few shihan who still see aikido as a MARTIAL art. The last seminar I did a 6th dan "aikido" was hit in the face a number of times because he rarely used atemi in his training. He left half way through the first training session.
When otomo, I think I learned some incredibly good lessons, and had a great time, when traveling to non-aikido schools to give seminars...especially since all of them were skeptical. I was nervous, but after techniques I was assisting with were working and I was handling the "what if" situations pretty well. Good times...especially because my teacher focuses the seminar to what they want...so if they want some aspect they think they can apply to kata, newaza, or whatever...we'd focus on that. Win-win.
I'm in agreement with koyo. A teacher will know within the first session or two if a student is serious and can be trained. Similarly any reasonably intelligent person should know if the training the teacher is offering is something they wish to volunteer for. It shouldn't take 7 months to figure out if your the sort of person who wants to go home with bruises several times a week all in the name of your own personal development. If a martial art requires toughening up it shouldn't take 6 or 7 months. It's not a matter of rushing. Rather it's a matter of students learning to practice in a manner where they can practice properly and safely.
-- The training of a martial artist lasts a life time. You can never judge a book by its cover, true, if you don't like it then it wasn't for you. Move on. Everyone starts out the same, a beginner. What they learn from their teacher is up to them. If I started placeing wadgers on the last 25 persons that started out in the class as to who would be around in 6 months, a year, 10 years, I would have lost money. Passing judgement, and helping someone out the door may serve to bolster your own position, I've always found that when a person is ready to leave, they can leave on their own free will, and often do. After all, they walked in on their own free will. Bruises heal, I still get them from time to time, and usually from the lower ranks that pinch and grab in the middle of their throws, oh well. Actually, the entire body is a miraculous healing machine. I guess it is all about comfort zone then...see after a month I would still feel fine. After 6 or 7 months I might feel comfortable, and after a year and a half, I would now know what my new comfort level is. Would I then be tough? With my bruises, increased endurance, strength, and attitude? No, for that it might take two years.
It is NOT up to a beginner what he wants to learn from his teacher. The teacher shall TELL him what he NEEDS to learn. If it is going to take you two years to get tough,,you are wasting your and everyone elses time. Aikido is a MARTIAL art. Aikido demands humility,sincerity,dedication and TREMENDOUS EFFORT, (O SENSEI UESHIBA)
Beginners are toughened up in early practices. They also learn ukemi by being thrown. This beginner has no control of the ukemi. I am throwing him into a ukemi. He shall learn by being thrown.
The study of martial arts can indeed last an entire life time. That is quite a different level of study from picking up the basics or simply becoming proficient in the art. In fact the excuse you've given above is the sort of thing frauds, charlatans and those who would dilute Aikido use to dupe students who aren't suited to martial arts. Very insightful. How does being honest with someone and telling them they are not suited to martial arts bolster anybodies position? The teachers who need to bolster their position are the ones who teach the sort of diluted nonsense where students still can't take ukemi after two years of practice while the "teacher" is lining his pockets with the mat fees. If you're comfortable in your training then you're not training hard enough.
-- And, umm, what exactly is your definition of tough? If it is what I think it is, then perhaps if I train extra hard, I might be there in two and a half years. If not, then, perhaps a month is sufficient, or maybe even three weeks.
-- How does not training them help you as an instructor? You only want to teach the ones who learn easy? The ones who are perhaps already perfect? The ones who have dan ranks in other arts that may or may not already know. Perhaps the ones that make your job as an instructor a little bit easier, more relaxed, less stressful for you? Instead of determining whether they are or are not suited out for the martial arts, give them what they initially need to start the journey (it won't cost you anything to share some "basics"), and let them come to that conclusion on their own. Why did you become an instructor? To teach only the ones that meet your criteria? If you are comfortable with your criteria, then perhaps you need some new criteria to take you out of your comfort zone. Will teaching inferiors take you out of your comfort zone? Then do it, by all means...don't get to comfortable with where you are, now. People come on their own, they walk through the door...I did not help them walk through the door. They can leave on their own whenever they want to, the door is in the same place. I just teach them for the time they wish to stay. And some like to put in extra hours just for fun. I can teach anybody regardless of what I think of that person or that persons ability...it is quite easy. They show up, and I'm already here...no favorites. I can practice with people I do not like on the mats, I can practice with people I do like on the mats...I train people that I think will "never get it." Of course I've said that about people before, and have been pleasently surprised. I like surprises, kind of like ki from an unexpected avenue. I wonder if the ones I have worked with, if at the beginning of their training knew what they were getting themselves into, would still be around? If I just laid it all out for them up front? I teach when someone is ready to learn, I practice when someone is ready to practice. Sometimes I get to do both, if I'm lucky. If you are comfortable as an instructor, then I suggest you redifine your instructor comfort zone. Take on an additional challenge or two. You might get to grow more, and you might get to help someone else grow a little as well (but don't do it in order for you to grow...your growth will come naturally), but take the challenge. Nothing to gain, right? Nothing to lose? Maybe just kick the ol' instructor comfort zone up a notch or two?
I'll hazard a guess that it's not about teaching only easy learners or experienced people,merely those who will truly apply themselves and undergo the serious training required to develop whatever skills are being taught.That's the only ability an instructor can expect from a student. Koyo stated it in his answer about toughening up in post #46- "...and mainly if the dedication and attitude to TRULY learn aikido is there." He also spoke of an unpleasant truth -(which applies to all MA training)-in the same post when he said "proper training is so demanding that few stay." Whatever the proper training methods are for a particular system,it seems to me the introduction of them to the student from the beginning of their study is to "give them what they initially need to start the journey..." .
It's better and far more honest than continuing to fleece students for money who are not advancing. Some people are simply incapable of doing martial arts. Giving a student honest advice is not about helping the instructor. It's not about advancing the instructor or bolstering his or her position. It's about doing the best thing for the student. Everybody in an Aikido class is expected to do their part as tori and uke. Neither is more important than other. If a student cannot learn to break their fall properly in a reasonable time frame then that student isn't suited to learning martial arts. Honesty in martial arts is of paramount importance for me.
-- I never said you had to charge them...In fact when I first started aikido, there were no fees, or monthly dues (that was just how sensei operated, there were other dojo around that did charge a fee). The only requirment was you had to set up mats prior to class, and put them away after class. There were about twenty of us, me being the new kid on the block, and everyone helped with the mats regardless of rank. Whether you charge them or don't charge them is up to you...I never implied you had to collect a fee for your helping someone to learn. I only implied that you challenge your own self a bit, get over your own shortsightedness, pass no judgement on those that express an inkling of a desire to learn a little bit more than they knew before they walked in, and attempt to redefine your "instructor comfort zone" a bit. The best thing for the student would be if you, instead of playing the role of the gate keeper, just got back to teaching. Maybe if the student hasn't learned to break their fall in a reasonable amount of time, they are not recieving proper instruction... Even Mr. Koyo said: They also learn ukemi by being thrown. This beginner has no control of the ukemi. I am throwing him into a ukemi. He shall learn by being thrown. If they shall learn by being thrown, and they havn't as of yet learned according to your "time guidelines for aikido," then perhaps you should be doing your part as an instructor and throwing them more (if that is indeed the aproach taken).
Yes thrown by an experienced practitioner who can guide them into the ukemi. But that hand holding can't continue for 2 years. After 2 years it'll be a habit. And the Aikido will have been diluted and pointless.
-- A mere testament to the instructors ability to teach, or refusal to do so. Guiding is teaching. If you can guide, you can teach. Once you stop with limitations, you will find that you have unlimmited power, unlimmited reach, and it just so happens you would take yourself out of the 2 year limmited "instructor comfort zone." If your aikido that you teach, or refuse not to teach because it will become pointless and diluted, then I would say either that is your opinion, or that you both (instructor and student) should be trying harder. You know, trying beyond both your comfort zone, and their comfort zone. A student is a reflection of the teacher. If after two years it's a bad habit, I suggest you reevaluate your teaching methods. Maybe it is time for change? Or, you can remain comfortable...up to you. There are many ways up the mountain, you with experience should be able to point a different way up to a number of different and unique students...
If the student is a reflection of the teacher and it takes him two years to toughen up. Find a real teacher.
