What is Qigong and how is it different from tai chi? Does it involve similar movements to Tai Chi or is it something completely different? I have just started Wing Chun so I am concentrating on that at the moment but in the future I would like to do something like qigong, tai chi, or yoga for the health benefits. Would Qigong be a good one to do alonside Wing Chun? Also, is qigong taught in classes like tai chi is, there dont seem to be many classes teaching qigong around the uk. Thanks,
Qigong is the PRC's chosen name for what was known as neigong. Qigong is a word for a part of neigong practice. It is variously translated as "breath work" "energy building exercises" "health exercises involving qi" etc etc. There is "hard" qigong - breaking things, bending iron rods, spears etc and strengthening the body against blows etc and there is "soft" qigong where the emphasis is on longevity, health and relaxation. I practise the latter. Taiji is a martial art that incorporates qigong into its practise set rather than doing it seperately - IF you have trained a long time and know what you are doing. Most Taiji schools do seperate qigong/neigong at an initial stage (until the understanding is reached) and some indefinitely anyway. There are a huge variety of qigong methods and practices although they do imo share common themes and principles in many cases. Some qigongs do look similar to taiji and many taiji movements have obvious qigong parallels imo/e Imho qigong will benefit anyone who does a CMA, but shop around - qigong has tended (ime) to be even more overrated than taiji often is. Some of it is rubbish and some is profound. Qigong practiced incorrectly (and some types if not supervised) can be downright dangerous - particularly to mental health. Hope that helps :Angel:
So it could cause more problems than it solves. Is Tai Chi a safer option or is that the same? Also, is qigong a set of slow movements like tai chi? What do you actually do in a class? Thanks,
Taiji is safer and more consistent than qigong ime/o. My chinese doctor also holds this opinion. No, not all qigong is done slowly, nor is all taiji. I've never been to an exclusively qigong class, so I couldn't say. I generally do 15-20 minutes of qigong, some exercises and then taiji form, ending with meditation/relaxation.
How is qigong dangerous? If it is dangerous why do so many people practice it around the world and why do you practice it? Thanks,
Qigong is not generally dangerous if practised correctly under the guidance of an experienced teacher. Certain types (white crane, iron shirt for example) are more dangerous than others. The main danger is to mental health, if the mind/brain side is not handled correctly. Qigong can induce radically altered states of mind that can cause psychosis and/or epilepsy in extreme cases. There are internal meridians in the brain that require the qi to move in specific directions, if this is not done correctly problems will arise. Also if energy is released too rapidly and the practitioner does not know how to manage this then again problems will arise. If energy builds up too much it can cause blockage or stagnation, likewise if energy is not cleared, grounded or dispersed correctly problems will arise. If force is used the qi can react badly also. These are some of the problems that can arise, but I must say this extremely rare. I practise qigong because it helps generate and regulate my qi. I have some long-term health issues that are greatly helped by it also. Hope this all helps :Angel:
there are many types of qigong. THere are many forms that could be done for health which would not be dangerous. I am sure Dr. Yang has a book of safe qi gong for health that can be done. Tuttle publishing has other forms qi gong for health. THis type qi gong is completely safe.
Most "hard" qigong is fake. Things like breaking a rock on your head or bending a spear with your throat are not qigong, they are magic tricks. Like all types of exercise, qigong carries certain risks if performed incorrectly, but if you follow these general guidelines you'll almost certainly be fine: 1. Always relax as much as possible. Only use as much tension as the exercise requires (most require little) and no more. 2. Always keep the breathing slow, even, relaxed and smooth. Don't breath rapidly, shallowly or forcefully (well, some qigong does have some relatively forceful breathing, but it is a little more risky to practice that on your own). 3. If you feel light-headed, queasy, or otherwise "off," then stop immediately, relax, drink water and come back only after you feel better with renewed emphasis on relaxation. If you follow these rules, teaching yourself qigong is almost completely safe, though having a teacher is obviously much better.
I should have read this thread before i started, other thing to know is the yin an yang aspect of each move. Forinstance your hands: Have Tai Yang an Tai yin also Lao Yang an Lao Yin This includes eight basic position of the hand each a different name with yin an Yang in it. The reason for this is to discribe the energy that is given in to the points you focus on if in the hand. That really means that in some position the hand will move easier than the other position in a certain direction in chi gong you focus on breathin in to those points an developing the energy flow so that it will feed the organ in essence without taxing the over all life of the organ that relates to the meridian on lets say the hand. Also not always is this on the hand it can be on the head the shoulder leg so . . on. THis will extend your life and teach you somthing worth protecting. This to guide your own energy. In tai chi same thing in the hand yin an yang thing but it is focused on feed or impeadint the energy of your opponents move. This shows you how to protect what you have learned that was worth protecting. This will give you how to guid somone else energy. Personally i have found all movement to be a form of chi gong in that we either are Tonifying the energy given to use or Sedating the energy given to use. Also here is list of some book that can help you understand. book list: Medical Qi Gong by Doctor Jerry Allen Johnson 18 Buddha Hands Qigong a medical I ching exploration by Larry Johnson T'ai Chi According to the I Ching by Stuart Alve Olson THere are thousand of very informative books out there on Qi Gong. The Philosophie alone is very developed as well as the systemitized method of learning. TO understand the actual practice is the hard part at first when you understand the literal path that thing take it will expand the mind. Maybe this will help. That even includes eating.
For a different perspective on qigong, please feel free to check out the following articles on the link at the end. I think qigong can be quite dangerous and can take your mind down an ever more introspective path, thereby encouraging dissociation from your other senses and from other people. Chinese clinics are having to treat a condition called "qigong psychosis." Sima Nan: Fighting Qigong Pseudoscience in China (Skeptical Briefs March 1999) (1000) Qigong: Chinese Medicine or Pseudoscience? (Book Review, Skeptical Inquirer September 2000) (1000) Roots of Qi (Skeptical Briefs March 2000) (242) http://www.csicop.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?q=qigong
Interesting thread... One thing I'd like to say about "qigong psychosis" is this: At present there are fundamentally two types I know of: 1. A genuine mental health problem caused by incorrect qigong practice. This is caused (generally speaking) by chanelling energy incorrectly in the ni wan / upper dantien / brain and causing an imbalance of some sort. Also over-focussing on certain aspects of qigong can cause an upset of mental health - excessive introspection, as mentioned above. 2. An excuse for the regime in China to lock up / torture / brainwash persons practising falun gong. Falun Gong (aka falun dafa) is a mixture of traditional qigong, religious ideas and a personality cult as far as I can tell. From what I have seen of its actual movement practises it is extremely unlikely in itself to cause psychoses, however some of the stuff said by its founder is pretty weird/off-the-wall and also those kind of 'cultish' practises often recruit and/or attract people with pre-existing mental health issues. My own view is it gives qigong an undeserved bad name. Personally I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole... :Angel:
Here's a link to a whole discussion on the subject of qigong debunking. Feel free to peruse it: http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-42108.html Incidentally, there was good and bad in the PRC government and purges were nothing new in Chinese history. Perhaps the attempt to eradicate folk superstition, charlatanism, quackery and pseudoscience should not be seen as entirely bad or unjustified. People often oversimplify Chinese history. The Nationalists weren't all good either, and actually drew inspiration from European Fascism. Oops - political controversy too.
I did not know this very informative the Qi gong i know only focus on certain point in the body is Naigong or Daoyin. Do Wudan Qigong an set called 21 posture an alot of the basic ones but mainly do thing related to certain seasonnal thing but thanks for information jkzorya. Also thankyou to Taiji Butterfly had heard ppl will do thing like that but nice to here again. My instructor told me that quiet a while back. I have been practicing on my own for about oo maybe 7 years now. Still remember all the things he would say to me each practice. Very informative.
Who said the PRC are soley at fault? Or that the Nationalists were any better? I'm just talking about what happens in the context of the present claims about 'qigong psychosis' (which you mentioned). As you yourself have said, and kindly provided links to articles about the subject, 'qigong' is a term coined by the PRC in the 1950's, so 'qigong psychosis' must therefor be a subject which can only be viewed from the context of the PRC imo. As for "the attempt to eradicate folk superstition, charlatanism, quackery and pseudoscience" - well, during the 'cultural revolution' this 'effort' included bombing unique historical monuments, ethnic cleansing in Tibet (including enforced abortions for Tibetan women), persecuting intellectuals (including anyone who wore glasses, doctors, university lecturers and the like - they were made to march down the street in dunce's caps), persecuting homosexuals, buddhist monks and nuns, taoist monks and nuns, christians and anybody who continued to practise traditional martial arts, to name but some of the "not entirely bad or unjustified" events of that time you are referring to... Do you support such actions as people being killed, tortured or exiled for their beliefs and cultural identities jkz? Would you perhaps like to see western practitioners of falun gong sent to prisons or given compulsory psychiatric treatment? What people? Can you be more specific? I read one of the articles on TCM you cited - http://www.csicop.org/sb/2000-03/qi.html - it oversimplified, downright distorted and spun chinese history right round. Translating qi as 'air' is downright incorrect according to my Chinese friend (a TCM and Western trained doctor btw). As the article was largely based on that viewpoint it starts to lose all credibility at that point, the author also fails to explain how acupuncture actually works (which it does and is accepted by the BMA). It was an unbalanced, ill-informed and prejudiced piece of hack writing imo. Qi means lots of things 'subtle breath' - a reference to 'energy' as opposed to 'air', life force, flow of life, wind (not air, two different things from a Chinese perspective), spirit, life itself etc etc Saying a 'word' in Chinese means only one thing in most cases shows ignorance of the structure and vocabulary of Chinese language ime/o... Fascism is fascism imho, I don't support it whatever colour flag it's waving. Check out 'Listen, Little Man' by Wilhelm Reich for a good overview of the causes of fascism and its characteristics. Not really, more like ignorance, I'm afraid :Alien: Jkz, you have too much of an axe to grind, I feel. You'll be more convincing when you stop telling everyone how it all is and start discussing it in a reasoned dialogue, surely? I know lots of people who practice qigong, both on here and in my everyday life and not one of them has 'qigong psychosis' or an 'unhealthy introspection', funnily not one of them is carrying out ranting campaigns on internet forums either.... I'll be in my bunker... :Angel:
Erm - like I said, the issue is complicated. Do you suppose all modern Chinese people feel the same way? How about card-carrying party members? Are they all brainwashed? Not everyone will be welcoming the loss of Communism. Let's leave politics well alone. You don't want to hear my opinions on capitalism, consumerism or democracy. I've said very little because I do not want to talk about specific incidences of people driven mad by qigong occultism. I've posted links to articles that present a different view. Someone has to present a different perspective. You don't want to hear my views on qigong either, and I haven't really given them - at least I've barely touched on them, but I will say that I find the level of hostility I provoke when I challenge the value of qigong here in the UK rather telling. Anyway, you can stop getting hysterical and you can come out of your bunker because I'm not going to argue with you. I'm keen to keep the peace with you, so please don't be so ready to throw it away.
People who claim to teach CMA but who don't understand the value of qigong are only getting part of the picture, though I don't feel "hostility" towards them. Part of me doesn't care so long as I enjoy my own qigong practice, which I do. However, part of me hates to see such an amazing thing as real qigong be publicly renounced as superstition. That such words might drive people away from studying such a great method for improvement of physical and mental health is a shame. I don't think there's such a thing as a good "purge." Superstition naturally tends to fall by the wayside as technology progresses. When you try to do something like that actively it either fails or leaves a hole to be filled by new types of charlatanism. By the way, in terms of martial arts and qigong, the Nationalists had a generally good effect, paying well-known martial artists to work together at national academies, cataloguing and organizing the arts. Certainly nothing they did compares to the Cultural Revolution. There is a lot of nonsensical, useless and fake qigong out there to be sure, but I can personally atest that some of it does have serious value. I hate to see it dismissed by the very people who are supposedly transmitting these Chinese arts to the west, but that's how it goes I guess... they either can't fight at all or else do fight by means of throwing the baby out with the bath water...
/\/\ Don't you ever sleep jkz? lol I don't think it is - a 'yes' or 'no' answer is clearly the only option in the case of supporting, or not supporting, mass murder, torture and persecution. "The end does not justify the means" - as someone cleverer than me once said... I have no idea what 'all' modern Chinese folk think about the issue tbh only what I think about it... I do know that many of those who tried to express an 'alternative' viewpoint in Tianenmen square ended up stacked up in heaps of corpses or simply disappeared. Genuine Communism died many years ago in China, it's now just a weird blend of totalitarianism, beaureacracy, corruption and traditional Chinese paradoxes. You're right, let's leave politics alone and then we can all just pretend that female children aren't still starved to death in 'orphanages' or Chinese farmers evicted from their land without compensation to make way for 'progress' and that Tibet was always really a part of China... Ah, the world seems so much better now... - please excuse my sarcasm/cynicism jkz, one of my (even) less admirable qualities, I'm afraid. On a serious note tho, I find the articles you posted interesting in some ways but basically they do seem to me to be political in motivation rather than 'scientific'... I'd personally be quite interested to discuss 'western' values with you - perhaps in the 'general' forum - I think we'd agree on more than you'd expect... Fair comment. I'm glad you're offering a counterpoint. I know of people with existing psychosis who find qigong helpful too tho... Not intending hostility, just challenging you vigorously I hope. I would say that when you wave a big flag (with a fist on it ) and start marching forwards - expect to come under some return fire... lol Awww but all my best shaw brothers movies and the pringles are in my bunker tho... Bless! I feel the same way too. (Nothing wrong with a bit of friendly debate tho) Peace :Angel:
Onyomi - good post. There are some real pillocks out there making silly claims, it's true and gives the rest of us a hard time defending good qigong practises (and good Taiji too)... what a world, what a world... :Angel:
We practice the following: I don't think that forums are the right place to have such discussions, but I think the nature of Daoism prior to the 7th Century has to be taken into account along with the indivisable nature of the Dao. Matter is energy and vice versa. The Dao is simultaneously the stuff of the universe and the animating principle. It is compatible with modern physics. If separation into internal and external martial practice has any historic validity at all, according to Prof Kang Gewu, the division came into being in the mid 17th Century in the Shaolin temple (from "The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts - 5000 years"). Is this true and most importantly - was this necessarily a good thing? Really now, who can say? What if not everyone accepts such a division? Did the whole world have to change then to fall in line with this new Buddhist thinking? Let's face it, those who question the value of Qigong are derided and belittled - the whole "internal" issue is a big stick used to bully those who do not value it. I would not have the view I do, had I not encountered such a ridiculous and entirely unfounded attitude of superiority from "IMA" exponents. I believe the effects of qigong can be very harmful and ego-fuelling, judging by my own experiences of being immersed in regular MA and "IMA" cultures for the last decade. The elitism within "IMA" culture is quite astounding, despite the fact that the martial artists themselves are frequently less good than martial artists from other styles. The neigong / waigong is by no means an ancient or universal truth - it was invented at a specific point in time by men. The same can be said of the neijia / waijia division. Such a division certainly does not guarantee martial efficacy. We have a right to disagree with it, but those who do are invariably deemed as less good or uninformed. So why don't "internal artists" take all the prizes at open style fighting tournaments? I will again state that I do not wish to get involved in the debate about the PRC vs. the Nationalists. We could not possibly do the subject justice here. TJB has readily accepted that qigong can be harmful, so with that in mind, why can we not decide to avoid it or even to take the viewpoint that it has the potential to be dissociative and even spiritually damaging? IMO this is not just a debate between so-called good and bad qigong. I think the focus of the role of neigong exercises within martial arts has been hijacked by people with a non-martial agenda. The exercises themselves can be fine and serve a genuine purpose - you have my definition at the top of this posting - but IMO the focus should not stray from martial efficacy and holistic martial movement refinement. Staying focussed on movement efficacy removes the dangers of becoming (in the words of Yang Banhou) "absorbed in mysticism and endlessly pursuing a mental achievement" which is far from holistic. Zhuangzi says "the Dao is in dung." IMO Daoism was originally a lot more down-to-earth than modern practitioners make out. I'm totally with Chen Zhonghua when he says that "we should "avoid 'Empty Talk,' about things like essence, qi and spirit..." He's a Chen stylist that has trained with both Hong Junsheng and Feng Zhiqiang. Why am I not allowed to agree with him? Surely I too can take such a view without derisive or hostile allegations being thrown at me. TrickyTrev asked some questions and he has had a number of different answers. TJB originally brought up the matter of safety within qigong / taiji practice. TrickyTrev clearly had some reservations about qigong and he is now free to make up his own mind. At least he got a balanced view.
