What is 'Qi', to those who believe.

Capt Ann,

Thank you for asking the question, and my answer (well, my opinion) would be to leave this thread to the people who accept the existence of chi as usually posited by IMA practitioners. There are several "chi" threads in this topic area, and many of them have turned into "yes, it exists" vs. "no, it doesn't exist" debates, and those threads might be a more appropriate place for the type of post you suggest.

As has already been pointed out, this thread was started by someone who wishes to discuss chi with like-minded individuals, and therefore, any attempt to discuss why you don't believe in the existence of chi will come over as a bit trollish, even if that's not the intent, and your position has been very well thought out.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that most IMA practitioners simply don't see the need to explain chi by way of western-style science and medicine. There is already a long tradition in place to explain it.

On the other hand, there certainly is no harm in coming to this thread to learn more about chi, to ask questions, and get answers. I just think a sensitivity to other peoples' beliefs should preclude any posts (in this thread, at least) along the lines of "I don't believe in chi". That being said, I will be watching this, and similar threads to make sure they are not degenerating into name-calling, which is not acceptable anywhere on MAP.

I hope that answers your question; please feel free to PM me if you have other questions or concerns.

 

Zillabilla, qi is another form of energy, which put into a living system, i.e. human being, it turns to be like the battery of its existence which is regulated from the above (Heaven) and below (Earth). Therefore humans serve as conductors of a huge electromagetic system (energy field of the Universe and the planet that carries our bodies). On the other hand, qi is continually supplied by clean air, rich and nutritious food, sensible exercise (preferably one that works internal qi (neiqi)), and regulated sex (which explains the connection between qi and jing, and ultimately shen).

Summing up, qi (and according to Taoist philosophy) is our soul, which can be seen with the third eye as the aura, that if the practitioner has sufficiently developed the pineal gland (located in the middle brain, at the forehead level and between the eyes) either through disciplined meditation or as a simple gift (very few people have a naturally developed pineal gland).

 

Gerard,
Interesting point here with the pineal gland. Do you know if the practice of 'qi' affect the melatonin levels? Since the principal hormone of the pineal gland is melatonin. Could make practioner more alert or enter a dreamlike state by the manipulation of hormone levels?

 

Hey Gerard,

Definitely agree with you there. In fact, I did some research in to the work of a man named G. I. Gurdjieff, whom was a ‘seeker of knowledge’, so to speak, he lived in the beginning of the twentieth century. Anyway, he travelled around central Asia looking for esoteric knowledge. In his book, and a books by his students is described an internal system, which has a lot of similarities with IMA’s, except its only on a purely mental level. In a book called “In Search of the Miraculous”, by P. D. Ouspensky (Gurdjieff’s student), the rules of the system are explained, if one interprets theses rules using the ‘Tai Chi’(Yin/yang) principals, one will be able to see that they are complimentary to each other, and give out a lot of information with regards to the nature of energy in space & time, from a unique combined perspective. You may find it interesting.

Hello Bear,

As mentioned in the start of this thread, there is a relationship between the focus, intent, ‘Qi’ and the blood. This relationship is such that, with practice, the strength of the focus/intent/ ‘Qi’ can be increased and controlled, allowing one to move the focus/intent, that leads the ‘Qi’, which in turn leads the blood. This practice is coupled with leading the focus/intent/’Qi’/blood around the body, in specific paths/channels, these paths/channels correspond to the acupuncture meridians. Through moving the focus/intent/’Qi’/blood along the paths of internal organs, one can benefit them by providing a grater supply of blood & Qi (nutrients, oxygen, energy), thus in turn optimizing their function. In the same manner the focus/intent/’Qi’/blood can be led along channels where glands such as the pineal gland lie, which also nourishes these glands and stimulates them to produce hormones and secretions in a positive way. This is a basic explanation, in practice more factors come in to play. This is due to the growth of internal energy from the synergy of these and other methods of ‘Qi Gong’. Its such that once one has gained health, or optimized the internal function to natural levels. One may then increase these functions to beyond normal levels, thus inducing intense levels of focus, through increased internal functions, such as increased hormone production. This allows the practitioner to become more aware and perceive at deeper levels, hence giving one the control required to manifest IMA’s movements in accordance with IMA’s internal principles. Hope its of interest.

 

Is there any chance you could go into a little more detail on this, I'm curious.

 

Hey Rabbit,

Its something like the two systems, overlap and share the same principles, but they both have something unique that is complimentary to understanding both. Kind of like; Taoism gives a philosophical/practical interpretation and Gurdjieff’s system a more spiritual/scientific/practical interpretation, but if you are only familiar with one of the systems, a lot of concepts cant be understood fully. I cant really explain, as it would require me to write a book on the subject, but if you’re interested I would recommend studying some ‘Taoist’ literature to gain an understanding of ‘Taoist’ philosophy, unless your already familiar with it, then checking out the book mentioned. Sorry, I couldn’t really elaborate too deeply, but its much too complex and requires an extensive explanation, such as a book, or two.

 

You don't need to explain them all but how about an example to illustrate where the two systems overlap and how the two explainations relate would be good to know.

The bear.

 

Hey Bear,

We'll like I say, it would be a futile to try and cover the whole two systems. But I will try and give you a taste, in a few points. Firstly, when practicing 'Qi Gong', the more tense one is, mentally and physically, the less the 'Qi' can flow. In other words the more relaxed you are the more open you are to 'Qi'. Gurdjieff also discusses, what I would call 'Qi', though he refers to it differently. He states that the more dense the matter the less permeable it is to energy ('Qi' or the specific energy Gurdjieff talks about), this fall's in line with 'Qi Gong' practice. Secondly he states that all phenomena under natural laws follow the same path, this is also present in 'Taoism', this path is the Yin/Yang diagram. Whereas Gurdjieff goes on about how all phenomena follows a path witch is similar to the musical octaves (do,rei,mi,fa,so,la,ci,do), he then goes as far as to plot these on a graph using the vibration measurement of each octave, the diagram for this make a 1/4 of a circle, this in turn falls in line with the circular pattern of the Yin/Yang diagram. These are very crude explanations, and you would have to have a good understanding of at least one of these systems to really see the significance of this. Furthermore these mere extracts are out of context, thus probably seem insignificant. But, there are many more profound yet revealing ideas that can be understood from studying the two systems, and the only thing I can recommend is for one to do just that.

 

back to what qi is

HI,

turning to the subject of what Qi is

Quote
‘Qi’ is your consciousness, focus, intention, awareness, you are your consciousness, thus, you are your focus, intention and ‘Qi’. Your focus/intent is your awareness of your external world (trees, people, buildings, etc), and your internal world (feelings, thoughts, emotions, instincts, sensations, etc).

The explanations of Qi that I have seen do not fall into the pattern you suggest. In my readings I have seen the following:-

In traditional Qi theory, Qi is divided into 3 main division heaven Qi, earth Qi and human Qi - with the most important as heaven Qi - as I understand it this means universal energy. Qi is continuous and pervasive. WE swim in it and IT swims in us. Not for nothing is the Dantien called the sea of energies.

In Chinese medicine to be alive is to have Qi - when it is all used you are dead. The presence of Qi is not associated with thinking or awareness it is said to come from 3 primary sources, prenatal Qi stored in the kidneys (inherited from parents) grain Qi - from food and Air Qi from breathing. Other, secondary sources are radiation from stars and earth.

Another interesting point to note is that talking about Chinese organs is not the same as talking about western organs. In TCM organs are defined by their function not their structure, so blood does not just mean the red stuff running through our veins it is defined as the carrier of nutrients through the veins and the meridian channels. When we read heart, lung stomach - TCM means all the functions performed by the organ and a few TCM things. A large part of TCM relates to the underlying principles of yin / yang and the 5 elements (or 5 phases theory) where organs and processes are slotted into various categories. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is not a natural read across - the words are the same but what is behind them comes from a whole other style of science and practices.

Although Qi resides in all of us few of us are trained to utilise and direct Qi effectively and hence illness (caused by stagnation or excess) can occur.

Illness arises from stagnation of Qi - either in excess of in a deficiency meaning that yang and yin symptoms can be seen. Stagnation is prevented and cured by Qigong exercises - which can be performed without intent - and improvements made. Training to increase knowledge of which acupoints to use and which energy circuits to activate - together with intent can significantly increase the value of Qigong exercises

Martial arts people use specialised qigong exercises to raise awareness of energy subsystems and enhance healing from injury also reputed to be the source of alchemy e.g. projection.

People can improve their health just by doing the exercises in a mechanistic way - just the way that western exercises can benefit health and reduce blood pressure and help manage diabetes.



Quote:
Consciousness is awareness, which is in turn your focus/intent/awareness. A living conscious being is always focusing on something, whether it be consciously or subconsciously,

I would suggest that it is impossible to subconsciously focus on something. The act of focusing brings the subject into the forefront of the brain into the short term memory areas. It is living in the now and it the intent part of Qigong - you bring subconscious process (of which you are unaware) and bring them to mind. You often see the phrase 'mindful practice'.

It is the difference between noticing all the trees and turns on the drive to the office and getting there on auto-pilot.


I also wonder about the interpretation of the yin / yang sign as being balance. My understanding is that it arose from the observation of the dark and light sides of a hill and such as the sun moved the quantities of light and dark changed. As such the tai chi symbol can be said to represent cyclic change. And within the symbol there is an 'eye' of the opposite color representing the seed of the opposite qualities.

It is also used as a bipolar categorisation systems i.e. one of opposites. light vs dark, strong vs weak etc.

I am not sure how that can be equated to balance although I have heard the balance explanation before.

 

Read the following books and you'll understand what "qi" is (and beyond qi) from a mystical -although veridic if you have been cultivating for over 30 years or you are person with the natural gift of seeing reality as it is- point of view:

1. Teachings of Don Juan (good intro)

2. Tales of Power (sums up everything)

Both written by Castaneda.

 

Don't know about that. However if you know mandarin I can assure you that Chinese scientists of this university have researched this area since they have been able to detect "qi" in the lab.

In the physical universe that resulted from the Big-Bang two opposing bipolar forces resulted: Positive and negative aka Yin & Yang. Both contain each other because the source is the same, that source is called The Source or Emptiness/Nothingness in Taoism. Theoretical Physicists and Astrophysicists doing currently research into the dark matter because it hold the key to the origins of this physical reality. I tend to think that it is simply the reminiscence of nothingness prior the birth of the Universe. Matter needs anti-matter in order to be otherwise it wouldn't exist. Also anti-matter contains matter otherwise it wouldn't exist either as anti-matter. So Nothingness was already balanced and its transformation into a new state (physical reality) via Big-Bang is in constant balance because it's is simply an expanded state of what already was there.

On the other hand and getting back of the topic of pure Yin & Yang froma physical perspectiveThis other link shows the validity of Yin & Yang from an easy to grasp mathematical point of view.

 

Uh...what research have you done to support this theory? Got any mathematical or experimental evidence to back it up?

Matter can exist quite happily independent of anti-matter, as you may have noted by the fact that out planet, solar system, and galaxy are composed exclusively of matter. In fact if the two meet they annihilate one another in a blaze of energy, so having matter containing anti-matter would be somewhat disastrous.

Its called a fractal. Iterative equation producing a non-deterministic yet predictable result.

The 'faces' are a result of human pattern recognition abilities rather than the algorithms themselves, beat in mind that the human eye can pick out a 'face' just about anywhere with a little effort.

Not exactly neglected, the systems were instead approximated because science lacked the tools to describe them. Yet despite this they still managed to be reasonably accurate in their predictions.

Actually it is, beyond a general set of guidelines. Why do you think that its possible for us to be told 'no, there'll be some light winds but no risk of a hurricane' followed promptly by one of the most devastating hurricanes in recent English history? (Thanks to the BBC and Michael Fish by the way, at least they get close most of the time).

So basically this page says that someone's developed an iterative algorithm (like many people before them, such as the Mandelbrot set or the Julia set). Well done. Its nothing new, and I fail to see what it has to do with Yin and Yang at all. It certainly does not show the validity of yin and yang in any way whatsoever.

As to this, absolute trash. The greatest scientific discoveries were made by subjecting research over and over again to the scientific world, testing theories over and over through experimentation and submitting research to peer review where it is torn to pieces repeatedly until there are no longer any weaknesses left in the argument. Darwin went through this. Einstein went through this. Newton went through this. Planck, Feynman, Hawking, every great scientist has made their discoveries through the scientific method, not through claiming that they are somehow above everything.

I apologise to the people who'll find this post combative, or possibly offensive, but I personally find the way that genuine science has been misrepresented and misused in the last post to be really offensive. I've tried to stay as neutral as I can in my response, and probably failed, but I've tried to limit myself purely to the matters of science that were mentioned and stay out of the philosophy or theology.

 

Hi Rosietai,

I’m not too sure from which post you’re quoting me from, as that explanation is posted twice. In any case, the reason for this explanation, as mentioned in one or maybe both of them, is to make it more palatable to a scientific mind frame. There is nothing wrong with the explanation you have seen, and in fact its very true, though I would not say its palatable to a scientific mind. The way my explanation ties in with what you have seen is as follows. As you mentioned there are the three ‘Qi’ – heaven, man, earth. Though simply knowing about their existence is quite useless, they only become relevant when you put them in to practice. The gate/point associated with the heaven ‘Qi’ is the ‘Pai Huey’ or crown gate, the earth ‘Qi’ corresponds with the ‘Bubbling Well’ points on the feet and the ‘Huey Yin’ point at the perineum, the human ‘Qi’ is in between, this corresponds to the structure of heaven, man, earth. As mentioned previously in order to put these principles in to practice one may train ‘Qi Gong’, as I’m sure you know. Within ‘Qi Gong’ to use either the heaven or earth ‘Qi’ one must first mobilize his/her own ‘Yi’ & ‘Qi’ to open the relevant pathways, or specifically the microcosmic and macrocosmic orbits. Once the path ways are open, one may then start working directly with the different ‘Qi’. In order to take heaven or earth ‘Qi’, one must first send his/her ‘Yi’ and thus ‘Qi’ to the relevant gate, hence either the ‘Huey Yin’, ‘Pai Huey’, and ‘Bubbling Well’s’ (though any gate/point may be used, the ones mentioned are the ones specifically dedicated to absorbing their relevant energies), once the gate is activated with ones ‘Yi’ and ones own ‘Qi’, one may then proceed to absorb the relevant ‘Qi’ (heaven, earth, other) and direct it to the which ever ‘Tan Tien’ one uses. Thus, in my explanation, I specifically concentrated on the ‘Yi’/’Qi’ connection, and mixed with that the fact that if there is no ‘Qi’ one is dead. Hence, consciousness which encompasses the ‘Yi’ / ‘Qi’ connection would not be possible, without the ‘Qi’, as one would be dead. Additionally, as I’m sure you’ll agree, when I say that if you are not aware on these ‘Q’ it as if they don’t exist, even though they carry out their functions.

You mentioned that ‘Qi Gong’ can be performed without ‘Yi’ or intent. I think that sort of ‘Qi Gong’ is called ‘Wei Gong’(not sure though), I practice ‘Nei Gong’(I think), this works specifically with the ‘Yi’ / ‘Qi’ connection. I don’t really see how ‘Qi Gong’ without intent can be more beneficial than ordinary stretching, because it would be akin to not being aware of it, which in turn is the same as ordinary stretching. Whereas if you are aware of it, then there is intention or ‘Yi’ being used. Anyway I’m not at all familiar with this sort of ‘Qi Gong’ perhaps you could explain how it works.

With regards to the organs, you said “there is not a natural read across - the words are the same but what is behind them comes from a whole other style of science and practices”. That is true, however I’m not too sure what point you are trying to make with this, in relation to my earlier explanation. The way that I’m familiar with ‘Qi’ being beneficial to internal organs is as follows. Through regulating and replenishing the ‘Qi’ flow through the ‘Qi’ reservoirs that lie along the microcosmic orbit, that supply the various organs. Also via abdominal & reverse breathing which are required for proper intentional microcosmic circulation, these in turn act by massaging the organs to increase the blood supply in the organs and their supplying structures, as well as create more space in between the organs for better circulation, thus also providing more blood flow, and nourishment via the blood. There are also practices where the ‘Qi’ is sent directly to the organs to clear blockages, by making the organs vibrate, this increases blood flow and shakes off impurities.

With regards to the conscious/subconscious comment that you had. Basically, as I’m sure you’ll agree, humans do not have a clear ‘Qi’ circulation. This is a result of external/internal conditions, which in turn result in blockages. These blockages may be conscious or subconscious and my manifest in the body or the mind. These in turn directly affect your ‘Yi’ / ‘Qi’ connection, hence it can be seen that when a person becomes healthier, their ‘Yi’ / ‘Qi’ connection grows stronger, which in turn allows one to better clear out blockages and balance, strengthen the ‘Qi’ flow. You said “I would suggest that it is impossible to subconsciously focus on something.”. The practice of ‘Qi Gong’ on higher level brings in to balance the conscious and the subconscious mind, in other words it brings the two under one control. Thus one becomes aware of processes going on externally and internal that were not possible to bring in to focus before. Hence, one is able to focus consciously and subconsciously at the same time. In otherworld the focus can travel between conscious and subconscious states. Some results are for example, that one may practice ‘Qi Gong’ or ‘Tai Chi’ for two hours and then return to normality, but it may seem like one was asleep and not practicing ‘Qi Gong’, and in fact have very slight memory of what one has been doing, as if its been a dream, though one was conscious and intently in it. In the same way one may be conscious in a dream, I think its referred as lucid dreaming. Furthermore, one starts to approach levels where it is no longer conscious or subconscious, but both at the same time working in compliment to each other. An example of this is the body under subconscious control performing actions and the conscious mind watching over and making the decisions, its sort of like being the pilot in a cockpit of a jet flying on autopilot. You are the one flying the jet on autopilot, but you are also watching over the autopilot. This is quite difficult to explain, and would be better understood with experience. Though I only had this state of mind for about two weeks after training 4 – 6 hours a day for two months, would like to keep that up, as it make s you feel very alive and overall great, divine, beyond words, but unfortunately I got to go to work.

With regards to the Yin/Yang balance diagram, aka ‘Tai Chi’. The diagram represents as you said cyclic processes and also duality, balance, and more. The cyclic change is either the transformation from one dualistic extreme to the other, whether gradual or sudden. Hence it can either be looked at as two waves slowly merging in to each other, like the changes of the seasons. Alternatively it can represent sudden change, in that when one wave reaches its extreme it collapses and turns in to its opposite. These are very brief explanations and much more can be said, as I’m sure you know. With regards to balance, it is represented by the ‘Taoist’ concept of being centered, or neutral, thus having the power for either extreme, or can be said as the power of one, or undivided, pure ‘Qi’, with no extremes. Once again, a very brief explanation, if you’re interested in these various concepts you should check out some ‘Taoist’ literature. With regards to its origins, I would think its more connected with the symbols of the ‘I Ching’. Which are said to predate Chinese history.

I think, generally the concepts of ‘Qi’ and process of ‘Qi Gong’ can be explained in a multitude of ways. However, the relevance is in practice and explanation is just perspective.

 

Hey Bunny,

Got a question for you?

Do you think the advancements of science achieved since the beginning of the 20th century outweigh the damage it has done?

Cheers.

 

What exactly do you mean by damage? Are we talking about the damage done by allowing people to communicate instantaneously across the entire planet, thus starting to break down cultural barriers and working towards one global superculture? Is that damage, or is it beneficial?

Are you talking about pollution? In which case what about the burning of forests before the twentieth century? What about a single volcano that can throw more pollution into the air than we could dream of?

Are you talking about medicine? Is it better to prolong the lives of those suffering, or allow them to die natural deaths? How do you decide whether or not they're suffering, or how do you place a moral price on the head of someone saved or someone killed?

Are you talking about war? Would it be better perhaps to allow evil to continue rather than to actually try and fight it? Maybe we should stop researching weaponry, and allow those who'd use weapons against us to win. But there are some things that our moral code objects to, and surely we have the right to fight for those?

What exactly do you mean by damage?

 

Hey Bunny,

Well, I guess I would mean damage as in turning people away from looking for the answer to the why we exist? And what is our purpose? Cause personally, I think anything else is a waste of time, as it has no meaning. And if we say life has no meaning, than we might as well do whatever we want, which is what the majority of people on this planet seem to be doing. Thus, damage done by turning the focus on to living every moment either looking for something pleasurable or trying to make something more pleasurable. In other words diverting peoples time and energy to what is irrelevant, best example would probably be the TV (television, not transvestite, though their **** as well). I guess it could be said that science can help us find the meaning to life, but why look outside for something, when the inside is much more readily accessible, in other words, there is as much space in the mind as there is outside the body.

But in another sense, you could say streaming from my first point, science has lead man to destroy and unbalance his environment, make the world more complex, and kill each other in ever larger numbers, and have the capability to destroy the planet. With the only benefits being medicine, that would not be needed in most cases, had we not created this toxic environment. Benefits such as telecommunication are kind of irrelevant, and only serve for pleasurable purposes, or business, nothing to do with the meaning of life.

I guess we can rephrase the question to : ‘Does and can science have an answer to the meaning of life?’

In reality this question can’t really be answered. But, what I’m interested in, is if you think science is the answer. Cause if its not, then why bother?

 

I'd personally consider it more useful to find out how we exist, before bothering with why. I don't actually own a television myself, having better ways to spend my time. And the reason to look outside for something is simple, everyone already has their own personal reason to live, or they wouldn't be alive. What you mean by the meaning of life seems to be a meaning for the main human race.

Science hasn't led man to destroy and unbalance his environment, or make the world more complex, or kill each other in ever larger numbers, or have the capability to destroy the planet. That's all been done through choice. Plague and disease has killed more people than we ever will, and much of it has been halted by science. What do you mean telecommunication serves only for pleasurable purpose? People being able to share ideas and thoughts from across the planet in seconds doesn't help anyone huh? Medicines being able to be shipped anywhere in the planet in twenty-four hours? Emergency equipment being delivered directly to sites of natural disasters within days. None of this is a benefit of science?

You seem to have a very blinkered view of science. Bear in mind that without your hated science, you'd most likely be dead within ten years or so.

As to does and can science have an answer to the meaning of life, that's a personal question for everyone individually to answer. My response is simple. Spending my whole life searching for meaning is a futile quest, I'll live it, then when its over I'll look back and decide if I spent it right.

 

Sorry if Im aiding to derail this thread as well but I felt like addressing a couple of the points made above...

I wonder why if everything else has no meaning that you bother to take the time to type these replies. By following your logic surely you are just as bad as science, in that taking the time to read and reply to your messages gives people (not to mention yourself) another distraction from the only truly important thing in life- thinking about why we exist.

Quite right I mean we created all viruses and bacteria and before we came along there were no natural poisions or natural disasters which would kill and maim people... oh wait actually there was. You might be a bit more gracious too in that without science you wouldn't be reading any of this or for that matter very likely to have read much of anything about Chi. Considering the amount of material available on Chi in the UK in 1899... Also you might add that another beenefit of science is that without it your trips to other countries say for example Singapore would be much more dangerous and much slower affairs.

For a rather convincing scientific explantion of where we came from and why we (and all life on earth for that matter) exist have a look at Richard Dawkins book- "the Selfish Gene". Incidentally, after reading this book and finding it thouroughly convincing it has not made me any less interested in introspection and trying to become more aware in my everyday life.

Personally, I don't think science has all the answers and I actually believe that introspection and understanding ourselves is perhaps the most worthwhile venture we can undertake. However, what I find rather annoying is when people take completely polarised views of a thing and try to present it in such a way as it backs up their arguments. Science is responsible for good and bad as with everything in life. I would suggest that it is always more productive to try and find holes in your own beliefs than simply close you ears and never bother listening to any opposing views and that goes for everyone (including me!).

 

Thanks Bunny, just wanted to gage your opinion.

 

Valid points CKava, but I think you may be taking some of my words too literally.
In any case, good post.

Cheers.