This says it all. Remind us again how many classes you have been to? But keep banging your head against the wall champ one day you may break through it. :bang:
Self-defense may be the reason alot of people study martial arts, but Bujinkan, IMO, isn't anywhere near a good system for this purpose. It is, however an excellent compliment to a solid foundation of self-defense. As Kagete said, there are alot more systems better suited to a self defense goal. They tend to be more straightforward, with a focus on developing skill quickly. To be clearer, I study Bujinkan for it's focus on combat mechanics, creativity, and affecting the morale of an opponent. I find these practices fascinating and want to explore them, whether or not anyone else who does is any good at fighting. Personally I find it distasteful for a Bujinkan dojo to advertise as teaching "self defense", unless that particular dojo has a separate "self defense" class. The difference is tantamount to studying emergency medical techniques, like CPR, the Heimlich, or how to do a tracheotomy with a pen, as opposed to studying medicine. I'm in no way saying that Bujinkan=Doctorate, but the difference with regard to one's goals is comparable. There are plenty of aspects of Bujinkan training that can aid in SD, but I don't believe that to be it's function. I hope some of this makes sense.(for good or ill) Anything can be an excuse for not including live training. Those who want it will and those who don't won't. Simply because "live training" suits your and many others' goals, doesn't mean that I have to train that way. As I've stated previously, I prefer randori for our training, and since my major definite goal in the BJK isn't self defense, that's fine with me. Is there any reason why that shouldn't be fine with you as well? Absolutely, but what randori sessions have you been a part of that they weren't?
Well - first off - you don't deserve an intelligent reply. Sorry - you don't. You haven't said anything worth replying to yet - as most of what you write is based on faulty premise and poorly constructed strawman arguments... For example - in the above paragraph - I put my BJJ / knife scenario together to show that critiquing a video in a sub-section should be relevant to the purpose of the thread - not the purported purpose of the art / practitioners in the art. So again - you are wrong - which isn't shocking seeing as you are wrong about us... a lot. And again - almost every BJJ club advertises self-defense on their website. So unless MAP wants to support thread crapping (ADMINS - I AM TALKING TO YOU HERE) because of a very loose thread to some people's training goals... ADMINS - LET ME AGAIN RE-OFFER TO HEAD OVER TO THE BJJ / MMA SUB-FORUMS TO PROVIDE INSIGHT TO THEIR INFERIOR METHODS IF THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE TOLERATED. My goals are my own business - and I am certainly not going to share them <personal insult removed>. You don't seem interested in having a conversation - you seem more interested in evangelizing the merits of tacos and beer - so my training goals are irrelevant to your crusade. Carry on (ignorantly). What you don't know about what we do could fill a freaking ocean (and you seem to be much more content sitting back and writing long - thread crapping posts proving what you don't know about us...). It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. By the way - you should be thankful people in here are even willing to respond to your ramblings. You have spent.... how many days in a BJK class. Oh yeah - Zero. But - don't let that stop you from telling us what we do around here and how it could be better if only we saw things the way you do. Tshirt dude. Remember the Tshirt. Now run along .... shoo... I am getting tired of putting you in your place... -Daniel
Daniel I am at work now. I'll address your points this afternoon when I have some time and I have also flagged the issue for other mods to have a look. In the meantime though please no more personal insults!
Thanks for the reasonable response. I can only suppose that when others go off on an insult laden rant that I must have hit a nerve.... Regarding live training, I only say that is necessary if you train with self defence in mind. It's a bit like claiming to be an excellent high speed driver and yet only ever drive at <40mph. If self defence is not a reason for why you train then of course there is not issue, but that still doesn't excuse the fact many classes advertise that it can be used for self defence.
Perfect example of how to not conduct yourself in a way that will keep you at MAP. Not the first time you've been told to quit the personal attacks, nor the second, nor even the third. Banned for 3 days. Next time you personally attack a member you've banned permanently.
Hissatsu. You're obviously not interested in having a rational discussion. I don't see how I've not been reasonable here. I've simply discussed the things that many would agree should be found in effective self defence training, which is of course relevant to Ninjutsu/Taijutsu given that some students will have it as a goal (to say otherwise I find highly doubtful), and many clubs actually advertise the self defence benefits. The fact you're focusing on me and not the argument before you is quite revealing! The fact you're older than me, and so will most likely have trained in martial arts for longer is nothing more than a red herring, so lets not go on about age and experience as if it trumps the actual argument. The argument can be dealt with on its own merit. If, however, age and experience are an important part of a valid argument for you then I could just as easily get someone older and with more experience than you who happens to agree with me. See why it's not a good idea to use that in place of an actual argument? You can just as easily come across someone who has more experience that you who disagrees with you. Then what?
Topher said - "If self defence is not a reason for why you train then of course there is not issue, but that still doesn't excuse the fact many classes advertise that it can be used for self defence." I have to agree and yet the same applies to a great many BJJ classes or Judo classes or virtually every martial arts class you ever see. The fact is that the vast majority of martial arts are not designed around contemporary self protection. Can they be adapted to serve that function? Usually but not always, at least not without turning the original art into another art entirely, in which case why not simply go study a different art in the first place? Martial arts and self defense training are NOT synonymous. And to answer your question, I personally study martial arts because I enjoy the training and for my personal development. I don't advertise self defense, I don't promote it. I make no claims as to my training being suitable for that purpose. In fact I specifically claim that it ISN'T. Do some classes claim they teach self defense? Yes and that's their look out. Go take it up with them directly but please don't tar all Takamatsuden practitioners with the same brush.
Topher, you aren't listening to anything people here have to say. You have already made up your mind and you are not open to discuss anything despite the fact you have no personal experience with the Bujinkan. I've brought this up with you before in another thread and while you might have your heart in the right place you are going about it all wrong. This is why you are not being reasonable. Prove to me you are here to discuss things. Do you know that there is sparring in some dojos? True its not the majority I'd agree but it still exists. There is some form of randori though or free play in most places as most people recognise that at some stage you need to be able to pull things off against real resistance and random attacks. Also to add to the "aliveness" did you know that I have not been to a dojo where there hasn't been a big emphasis on attacking correctly. I have seen many Bujinkan teachers absolutely go off for people attacking like the way you are thinking we attack all the time. I'm sure these dojos where its always completely compliant and crappy exist and are plentiful but heres the thing....I choose not to go to them, I choose to go to people who know what they are talking about. So please when you decide to talk about the Bujinkan, maybe just maybe there is alot more to it than you know.
Since I said I would respond to the points Daniel made: I've debated fundamentalist creationists who I disagree with wholeheartedly and whose arguments I tend to find deeply dishonest and treated them with more respect than you display throughout your reply. The above is just some particularly unpleasant examples. This is a fair criticism however it is almost buried by the threats to intentionally cause disruption. Topher is not interrupting and commenting on every thread in the Ninjutsu forum. As you pointed out Topher has around 30 odd posts in this forum (probably 40 now) thats less than 10 posts for every year he has been here. Does that suggest that he is a prolific troll runing every good discussion or a member with a genuine POV and curiousity. Whether his POV is informed/correct is another issue. Treating a member as if they aren't even worthy of being treated with respect because you disagree with them is not on. Topher may be uninformed about aspects of Ninjutsu but I think you are equally uninformed about his intentions. From my experience with Topher I suspect he has some ideas which he will strongly defend but at the same time I think he is genuinely interested and will respond to others POV if they present it in a rational way. Maybe he won't but if all replies were the same as your pre-emptive dismissal and incredibly condescending reply it will be impossible to find out. Instead of insulting someone for their ignorance you could explain why they are wrong and do so without speaking as if they are dirt and not worthy of your explanation. Honestly Daniel I don't get you sometimes. You seem like a reasonable and intelligent guy at times but you also seem to have basically no interest in treating people you disagree with, with any respect whatsoever. Hayseed & Terrior's replies are to me models of how you can respond and criticise someones perspective without resorting to personal attacks and instant dismissals. Good job guys and thanks!
Bleh. This is a non-issue. At the risk of repeating myself, the fact that there are elements within the system that can be useful in self defense situations does NOT mean that the purpose of the system is self defense. This is true both in regards to traditional martial arts and MMA. Now Topher, you're obviously not interested in having a rational discussion. Yeah, it reveals the level of your understanding! Good luck finding such a person within the Bujinkan...
I'm sorry but this is just so untrue it's pathetic. Maybe you should consider the fact that this isn't the first time he's been through this...
Absolutely. I agree with you. And now let me repeat myself: I am NOT talking about the purpose of the system; I am talking about the reason people train. What is it about that, that you cannot comprehend? Again: I'm NOT talking about the supposed purpose of any system. The purpose of a system and the goal of training is not necessarily the same. Some styles may not even have a specific purpose. Others may have a purpose, however that does not mean it is identical to each practitioners goals. (e.g. the purpose of a style may be competition, but the goal of a practitioner may primarily be fitness. For someone else it may be purely a hobby, while someone else may train for competition, in which case their goals would be the same as the purpose.) I don't see how this can be so hard to comprehend!
Perhaps an analogy outside of martial arts may help here. Lets look at Bondurant School of High Performance Driving. The basic course purpose is to make you better at car handling especially at speed. One person may go to see whats its like to drive fast and hard. Another may want to develop skills they feel for safe highway driving. Another one may want to learn skills for law enforcement etc
Would it be out of line to propose that purpose of Martial arts systems in a general sense is to teach one to fight. One of course could fight for fun, for fitness, for self defense. In a related sense I always felt a certain kinship with classical dancers as regards training. I have felt that many dancers could make good fighters and many martial artists could make good dancers. They all share a common path of flexibility, body control, precision, strength, controlled movement etc etc However in the case of classical dance the general purpose is to learn to dance versus my postulation of martial arts as being done to learn to fight. Again classical dancers may do it for fun, fitness or even vocation. As such then I would postulate the purpose of ninjitsu/taijitsu is to learn to fight with all the subreasons listed already as to why the person will spend the time and effort to train. However dont look for me to start wearing a tutu anytime soon. Although my granddaughter sure looks cute in hers!
