What is Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Force, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Well unfortunately, the training methodologies DONT stay the same. Not when every dojo is different. Some spar, some dont. Some train with other styles, some dont. Some people have experience in other arts, some dont.

    IMO, this is the main problem with the Bujinkan, and it needs to be addressed FIRST before anyone talks about solving its other problems. Until there is a standard or set training methodology, there will never be a debate that can be answered truthfully.
  2. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    It's the same old problem.

    It's very difficult to have an objective argument about Chess when you only have knowledge of Draughts/Checkers.

    It's very difficult to have a discussion in Italian with other Italian speakers when people keep chiming in in Norwegian. Especially when it is the same Norwegian sentence over and over again.

    I see people constantly posting in a thread that has no bearing on their own martial arts practice, but I don't see you all turning up at our dojos to get first hand experience. I LIKE BJJ and MMA but I don't try to learn about it by constantly going to the BJJ/MMA sections on MAP and asking about multiple attackers, knife and gun defence and all the other things that I know they spend very little time on, because it would just not be productive or beneficial to anyone and I would be disrupting valid discussions between the practitioners of those arts which is not my wont.

    And no offence to the Mods but it is very difficult to have a boxing match when the referee keeps jumping in and punching one of the contestants.

    Some people occasionally make good posts from an outside perspective but if there really was all that much common ground we would all be studying the same art, and we are clearly not.

    If we stripped out the kata, the weaponry, the historical aspects, the etiquette, the low-percentage and more unpleasant techniques/principles, and spent a large proportion of each lesson rolling and sparring and every other lesson or more in little more than our underwear and all our spare time in the gym and the tanning salon, and then competing with other dojos/clubs who have done the same thing, then it would not be the same art any more.

    Not to bring up an earlier point yet again, but you can see why people might like to go and discuss their art on a forum limited to that art.
  3. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Best post in a long time. This should be a sticky or something.

    Anyone who doesn't understand this shouldn't post here, IMHO. Good one, Arashima! :yeleyes:
  4. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Kikaku I don't know what special expertise you think you need to spot when someone is being obnoxious but it isn't a skill unique to people who practice Ninjutsu or have experience of this forum. I get that you think 'The Force' is being perfectly polite and reasonable which isn't suprising given that you know him, agree with everything he says and display a similiar level of tact. I don't agree that he's being polite or presenting incredibly well thought out criticisms. I'm sorry this causes such offence but being a moderator does not mean removing my opinion nor is there some special class you have to attend to recognise good posts.

    In terms of being sanctiminous... yes, acting as if you have ALL the answers and that the people you are talking to are morons is somewhat sanctiminous. I agree that some of the initial responses were unnecessarily dismissive but I don't blame people for responding somewhat dismissively now. Prior to modding this forum I was not that involved with the Ninjutsu forum and yet I have heard almost the exact points 'The Force' raised hundreds of times (and presented in almost in the exact same manner) so I can only imagine how often the members here have heard them. Now once again I'm not saying that The Force's criticisms are entirely invalid I'm just suggesting that discussing them in the fashion he is, is unlikely to result in any productive discussion. It's just going to lead to the usual polarised rants. In such a situation there IS a higher ground to be taken.

    Sorry Arashima I have my own opinion and being a mod does not mean I have to remove that. I'm a mod and a member. I can assure you that any mod action I take though will be nothing to do with my personal views on topics.
  5. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    I do appreciate that, as long as you are not always one of the Norwegians, and try to see things from the Italian side of things. If all your contributions are in Norwegian you may be hindering rather than helping.:)
  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I can see why you are frustrated Arashima but to be honest I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I doubt anyone is suggesting that people need to do anything like you suggest, what they seem to be suggesting is that incorporating some form of sparring and/or more realistic resistance is beneficial. And to be honest due to prior discussions I've had on here I've found that most people actually do recognise this and many said that it was already part of their training. When I did Wing Chun many people came in and commented on Wing Chun training in threads and while many of them were just uninformed nonsense there were also many good posts from people from other styles that did make me think about things. It's just a matter of sorting the good from the nonsense and I think that's not really too difficult for most people to do.

    P.S. In what art do people go the tanning salon by the way? Maybe I should join I'm too pale!
  7. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Hey don't knock Norwegians! They are nice people!

    That said, I take your point but I actually think there are Italians who hold similiar views to myself. I swear I've met them in past discussions.
  8. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    1) Where do I state that he's being polite?

    2) We share an opinion and I'm sure there are a multitude of people who agree with us, what does that mean? We're all rude and arrogant and have no place on this forum?

    3) Tact? Christ, you're still moaning about conduct.

    That could be said about about any of your contribution in this thread. Besides who cares if you don't think that his criticisms are well thought out!? Who are you to judge? You have ZERO experience in this matter!

    I'm not the only one in this thread who's pointed out that your opinion is pointless.

    Having a differing opinion and expressing disagreement does not constitute as being sanctimonious. Expressing multiple opinions into a conversation where it's not warranted (i.e. you) could be construed as sanctimonious. Can we say pot called kettle black?

    Back to your old double standards.

    So what's your point? That any post which bears a resemblance to a previously stated critique should be dismissed out of hand?
    You don’t think that this could be a pattern?

    I have a strong feeling that even if he raised his arguments in the most diplomatic way possible, it would still garner the same defensive responses.

    Whatever takes the focus off the topic and any valid arguments raised.

    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  9. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I'm not up for repeating myself. I've already explained why I think my opinion is valid. You don't agree- good for you, now what? Are you just going to keep repeating yourself until I'm convinced by the sheer amount of times you make the same statement?

    lol... Your last post you accused me of being 'a product of group mentality' after I outlined what specifically convinced me that Banpen's dismissal may not have been as unwarranted as I originally believed. And yet here you are, one post later, saying 'look other people think like me I must be right'.

    1) You have argued throughout the thread that people are dismissing his arguments because they are accurate and dismissed anyone who has pointed out that he is posting in an unnecessarily aggresive and rude manner as just making excuses.
    2) No. There are plenty of people with the same or similair opinion who can post without being rude or arrogant.
    3) How odd a moderator concerned about people posting with tact and not being obnoxious.

    As for your line by line breakdown. Your questions seem to be mostly rhetorical and your comments are your trademark shotgun allegations and insults. If you have any specific burning issues you would like me to address feel free to raise them if you feel I'm avoiding them. However, I don't feel like having a 10 page line by line discussion over such riveting topics as the definition of sanctimonious so maybe if it's something like that we can just agree to disagree?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  10. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Yes, because there are only 3 members on this board. You, me and Banpen.

    Again who cares if he's being unnecessarily aggresive? How is that relevent to the conversation? You seem more concerned with people getting their feeling hurt, than you do with the chance of any real conversation.


    Stick to removing insults and swear words.

    This actually made me laugh out loud.

    Yes, let's call it a day. As long as I get the last word ;)
  11. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    No problem :D.
  12. Terrior

    Terrior Valued Member

    Some nice posts Arashima.

    Also I'd like to say thanks to CKava, I think hes doing a pretty good job of moderating so far (for a non-ninja!). Having said that I can't agree with some of your opinions mate (particularly in regards to being able to spar in under 2 months). I can see how you can come to that conclusion but I really think that perhaps there is some bias in your opinion based on what can be done with other arts that you are familiar with. Don't worry, as you can tell its pretty damn easy to get confused even when you have been training for some time. This is why getting a good instructor is of greatest importance as early as possible. I don't think anyone who is any good has ever said that you will be able to get good yourself if you don't train in a realistic way. I know some pretty skilled people who do not spar or advocate sparring...yet they have no problems using the art for real. Its just a tool, its not the only way to train realistically and get results. Its more important to train with people who get what Soke is teaching. You can see how this is a problem though as it is all subjective stuff, whats good to me might not be good for someone else...so train in something and with people you think are good.

    So, The Force if you aren't getting what you are looking for then leave. If you can perform the Kihon Happo, San Shin no Kata and ukemi quite well in 2 months then you are a freak (even if you train every day). Its just not possible to get these things quickly...even if you think you do, keep training and you will change your mind and so the cycle will repeat.

    Personally I think the only language that matters when we discuss certain topics is Japanese...
  13. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Ckava, can I just say I think you are doing a great job at modding this forum. As you say you don't have to be a Ninjutsu practitioner to pick up when people are being rude, obnoxious and in a forum to cause trouble. I think that you are doing exactly what has been needed round here for a long time and letting discussions go on, but pulling up the people who need it.

    Most people round here have seen the same debates time and again and do get fed up with the constant whining that occurs from those who dislike ninjutsu. Many of us have things about the style we think need improving, but we do love the essence of what ninjutsu is and will defend it when we think it is being unfairly treated. Yes, sometimes this leads to an over-reaction to certain topics, but at least you seem to understand where this is coming from and why it is happending! Keep up the good work! :D
  14. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I think Ckava is doing just fine, even if I disagree with him on a few things. Like some of the other mods that shall remain nameless, at least he has the decency to discuss and explain his opinions, rather than "Because Im mod and I said so." Also, CKava is the only mod that has PM'd me in a way that doesnt make me angry and is actually entertaining, haha.
  15. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    My problem is with the timeframe you suggested.

    No offense, but this too goes to show your unfamiliarity with the Bujinkan. I gave up trusting people's judgement long ago.
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I really appreciate the kind words folks (being a mod can be a bit depressing at times!) and I also accept that I won't see eye to eye on every issue with everything... but thats alright and from my perspective it makes things more interesting especially when people have good arguments for their POV. Anyway, again much obliged for the comments.

    And Kagete I'm kid of glad I haven't reached your level of cynicism yet. It's also remarkable to hear someone say I'm not cynical enough... that really is a first! :D
  17. Dark Shadow

    Dark Shadow Valued Member

    Can't really disagree with anything you said, except one small part. Yes you are correct, people are suggesting adding in sparring. However, anyone would be hard pressed to find a thread that didn't include that comment. So, in other words, its been said many times, why is there a need to beat the horse? How many times does it need to be said? Where is that dead horse icon again? LOL!

    And then people wonder why a) the majority of the people here have left, Dale for example, and why the few remaining get so disgusted and hardly post or give input on anything. usually goes something like this,

    New thread on (place Booj subject here)

    Good discussion, good discussion...

    Oh, that wouldn't work, its not alive. BTW, when are you guys gonna start sparring?

    Same old song and dance.

    Back to lurking.
  18. Dark Shadow

    Dark Shadow Valued Member

    Oh and for the record, I'm not against live training or some sparring. I just don't throw it in every single post.
  19. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I agree Dark Shadow I don't think it needs to be mentioned in every single post/thread and I can see why people get sick of the topic. Still... that's life! I think decent discussion can carry on around such comments and depending on the way such comments are made they can occasionally lead to further useful discussion i.e. see the 'new video' thread.
  20. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    WHy is it so hard to understand the frustration of owning in an Italian restaurant and having half of the customers try to order Mexican food...

    No matter how many times we say it - it NEVER seems to sink in.

    We don't serve Burritos or Tacos here. Ever. EVER. Ever.

    I don't care if you think that Tacos are the greatest food on earth. And most of us aren't interested in a conversation with any of you about how much better tacos are. We are in the Italian restaurant for a reason...

    We like Alfredo and linguini. You like Tacos and Beer. Its ok. Most of us who have been around for awhile have had Tacos and Beer as well - so when we show up at the Italian place - it isn't by accident.

    And if you are still in the Italian restaurant, screaming that the food here is trash because you can't order a Taco ... don't consider it "avoiding the topic" when we shake our head and tell you to not let the door hit your ass on the way out...

    Anyone who is surprised that the BJK class is different than the Muay Thai class is an idiot. Yes. An Idiot.

    When you understand enough about Italian food to discuss it - let me know. Until then ... enjoy your tacos and beer.... SOMEWHERE ELSE. It is rude to bring another restaurant's food in. Take a lesson in manners.


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