What is Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Force, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I feel the same way. Just for the record how many of you on here have been in a postion where you had to beat somebody with a chair?
  2. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Random image removed
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2008
  3. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I've never been in a position where I've had to armbar anyone, but I get the feeling you won't be advising me to stop my BJJ training because it is unrealistic and I've never had to use it.

    Oh yes, very mature. If you can't answer a point, then resort to eye rolling icons and irrelevant video files. That just confirms my belief that you are not here for a discussion but are on a crusade to convert the ignorant ninjas to your enlightened point of view. You Da Man!
  4. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    *sigh* Actually I didn’t find you worth dignifying with an answer. You're bringing nothing to the table here. Now you’re inclined to label me a troll for having a difference of opinion?

    Congratulations on fitting the stereotypical ad-hominem elitest assumer, which this forum is so famous for.

    For the record, I've been a member of this forum for years. I'll also add that this is the only thread I'm participating at the moment. So I'm hardly here to "disrupt discussions" :rolleyes:

    This is pot calling Kettle Black!

    Show me where I've tried to paint any sort of picture of Ninjutsu.

    Right! What exactly did I misinterpreted?

    I think you need to re-think that little paragraph. But let me ask you, have you ever used a weapon in a fight? Are you prepared to accidentally kill somebody with a weapon?

    Yadda, yadda, yadda...Save your cliches.

    You'll always have your limbs though at any given time now won't you? ;)
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  5. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    First two are projectile weapons which I specifically mentioned, Bottle can be a projectile weapon or a club or a knife, my Indian clubs are shaped just like bottle. (I don't actually train with them as a club though TBH). I have trained with batons/jutte /tessen/ (solid kind) etc before plenty of times and only last week. Bin lid was a good one but doesn't work very well with wheely bins we tend to have here.

    Slight slip at reading comprehension there on your part wasn't it.
  6. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    I have beaten someone with a maglite before. Never a chair, I was taught how to use a chair in a fight in basic training in the army though (it's not standard the Directing Staff member was showing off).
  7. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    We are caught up in fantasy but you think you have eight limbs (unless you are a set of Siamese twins in which case I apologise).

    <Unnecessary images removed>

    Or are you just getting stressed by something on the internet?
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
  8. George Kohler

    George Kohler Valued Member

    Sorry, it is not my intention to say that that is "all" what is taught in regards to weapons. My meaning is that most do very little "ninja" stuff. And if they do any "ninjutsu" it is probably ninpo taijutsu and ninja tools. By ninja tools I mean like shinobi-gatata, kunai, kyoketsu shoge, senban shuriken, ect, which are all considered ninki or ningu (as in toki-climbing tools, kaiki-entering tools, suiki-water tools, kaki-fire tools and kakushi buki-concealed weapons).
  9. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    This comparison is not only incorrect but also unfair to both Judo and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The concept of "kyojitsu tenkan" mean anything to you?

    Apparently you have. I'm not a practitioner of ninjutsu myself.

    Bottom line is that it's not fair to look at a given training method and label it "unrealistic" and "archaic" in regards to self defense, when it's actual purpose has nothing to do with self defense but is more about angles, distancing and leverage...in order for a questioning of our methods to be meaningful you need to understand what they're used for, how and why. Here we also have another problem, namely the fact that sometimes theoretical explanations aren't enough. There's this old example in Dave Lowry's book "Moving Towards Stillness" where he recalls being unable to perform a certain movement (I remember it being some sort of a jumping kick) for a long time. After a while, his teacher told him to simply shift his balance a bit - and then suddenly it worked, at which point he angrily demanded to know why he hadn't been told what to do earlier. His teacher's wife actually responded to this by saying "would you have listened if he had told you before?"

    People are sheep.

    Most of those who openly state that they only care about self defense and nothing else (I'm speaking from my experience in the Bujinkan here) are arrogant, belligerent and all-in-all a pain in the *** to train with. On the other hand, there are also those who don't care about learning either self defense OR the system, and who are mostly in it to move around, meet a couple of friends and feel better about themselves. They're the ones you most often see throwing punches with their thumbs inside their fists.

    Me personally, I train because I want to learn the system. That is my number one priority. Now the system does have stuff in it that may be useful in self defense, and taking advantage of that is, in my opinion, not the same thing as training for the purpose of self defense.

    You *ARE* wrong. Ninjutsu has nothing to do with either taijutsu or self defense.

    No, not really. No more than Hatsumi did back in the 80's when everything was called Togakure ryu.

    That's exactly what I did in my first post in this thread. Look how much good it did.

    And I think you're biased. There, I said it.

    There are no such things here.

    Invalid points are invalid points, Bujinkan or not.
  10. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise


    It must be nice not having to worry about violence.

    My right hand aches when its cold because of the two fractures that were once there and the gums between my couple fake teeth bleed randomly.. .never fully healed from the brass knuckles.

    Maybe that has made me paranoid, I dont know.
  11. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Maybe he was including the elbows and knees?
  12. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Ironic, you making a quiff about reading comprehension when in fact you’ve missed my entire point. Why?

    So you walk around with Indian clubs, batons, jutte tessen on regular basis? *sigh*

    Or perhaps I was using Muay Thai terminology. Not exactly shocking considering it’s one of the primary arts I train in as well as Bujinkan :rolleyes:

    BTW Ckava: I noticed you removed my “random image”, but not adouglasmhor's...why?
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
  13. Terrior

    Terrior Valued Member

    Kikaku, last time I checked I only had 5 limbs, if you got 8 forget about fighting, the ladies will love you!!!

    Maybe the whole idea about being able to use anything as a weapon is because we tend to focus more on doing things with taijutsu behind it. For example in my experience we focus more on taijutsu with a sword, stick, knife etc rather than specialising in anything specifically. So i dont see what the big deal is about practicing with different weapons, it all helps to better your taijutsu if that is your goal.

    Also if you cant use something then how will you know how to defend against it? Unless you are implying no one goes around trying to hurt others with weapons? Not saying your not going to get hurt trying to defend yourself if you train with weapons in mind but you have a better chance than if you never include this in your training or do you just think you can MMA your way out of it.
  14. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I think everybody is going off on a tangent here with their defences against this whole weapons issues. I’m not impervious to the idea of using weapons in self defence and I train to defend against them. My whole argument was that the whole “using the elements” to use as make shift weapons was overrated and is blown out of proportion. In this case to give further validation to Ninjutsu as an art to “prepare you for the real world" and to further discredit anything MMA related.

    I’d also like to clear something up here for the record. I think many of you are under the impression that I’m a steroid wielding MMA gym rat fighter, when in fact you’d be mistaken. I cross train in a few arts and I’m also still an active member of the Bujinkan and I continue to train in the art. I’m simply open minded enough to see and appreciate the merits of a broad scope of methodologies which different arts offer. I don’t get caught up in a lot of the un-practical sensationalist hype such as make shift weapons and using the elements around me to defend myself etc. I don’t start fights, I don’t carry a pen around with me, I despise having lots of change in my pocket, I don’t carry a blade/brass knuckles/gun either.

    The general attitude seems to be that these methods are exclusive to Ninpo practitioners and their awareness, I beg to differ. Anybody can pick up a chair, glass, bottle, ash tray and use it as a weapon.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  15. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    It's not about someone else being able to do it too, it's about who does it first.
  16. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Or like I said a few posts ago, who is capable of thinking of it first.
  17. snake_plisskin

    snake_plisskin Valued Member

    Re: Kikaku's quote:

    "The general attitude seems to be that these methods are exclusive to Ninpo practitioners and their awareness, I beg to differ. Anybody can pick up a chair, glass, bottle, ash tray and use it as a weapon."

    Re: chairs laying around on the actual street. In several Boroughs served by regional and national trash haulers, one day per month, there are literally thousands of potential weapons--pardon the very poor pun--littering the streets waiting to be hauled off by the trash trucks. And yes, it does not take a practitioner of any martial art to think about using them effectively--and with lethality.

    News article follows; bold type mine and underline mine:


    Guilty plea in Kyle Quinn’s murder
    Posted in News on Wednesday, August 6th, 2008 at 3:34 pm by Dave Gilmartin, Managing Editor


    A 24-year-old Allentown man admitted in Berks County Court today that he beat to death a Kutztown University student from Warminster after another man started an argument over a cell phone.

    Timothy R. Gearhart pleaded guilty before Judge Paul M. Yatron to third-degree murder in the Sept. 7 slaying of Kyle G.D. Quinn, 19, on a parking lot off West Main Street.

    Originally charged with first-degree murder life in prison, Gearhart now can be sentenced to a term of 30 to 60 years in prison.

    Co-defendants Kenneth R. Kline, 21, and his brother, Terry D, Kline Jr., 22, both of Allentown, are charged with third-degree murder.

    Gearhart and the brothers are being held without bail in county prison.

    According to court records:

    The slaying occurred just after the three had left a Kutztown tavern where they had been drinking.

    Gearhart admitted to police that he inflicted the fatal blow with a wooden table leg.

    Kenneth Kline told police that he started an argument by grabbing Quinn’s cell phone and throwing it across the street.
    Kyle, who attended nearby Kutztown University, was murdered by a blow from a wooden table leg that Gearhart found on the street.

    Just figured I'd bring this up since it was "big news" last year, and questions regarding training in use of improvised weapons seems to be in vogue in this discussion.


  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Could be the guy with streetsmarts who can go from alert to 100% unlimited attack using surprise aggresion and sustaining it.

    He would not use stances or involved techniques or a "plan". Nor would he enter into some kind of "competition" with his enemy. If you are defending you are not attacking. (those who do not understand enten jizai).

    Surprise the guy, hit him with whatever you got wherever you can as often as needed.

    Afterward call it whatever "art" you want.Someone who is fit.tough and has the balls to attack no matter what fighting art he trains in has a better chance than most.

    regards koyo
  19. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Exactly and if you want to split hairs you could argue that the stereotypical “bar thug” is more likely to pick up the glass, beer bottle, chair and use it against you (if you hang out in those sorts of places of course ;))
  20. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    You just hit the nail on the head.

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