In my opinion, I think that alot comes down to how everyone in the Bujinkan trains. Is watching youtube going to give an accurate picture of it? Some will say no and some will say yes. Have people used their training with success to defend themselves? I'm sure they have. Is the Bujinkan the ultimate in self defense? Is Kenpo? Is TKD? Is BJJ? No, of course not. Are there usefull things in the art? Yes, of course. We have alot of members here who train BJJ. Let me ask a few questions of you. Why do you train in BJJ? Do you feel that it is the best for self defense? Do you feel that it has solid weapon defenses? Do you feel its good if you're fighting more than one person? Do you train in another art to supplement your BJJ training?
Depends, if you have the good sense to differentiate between fighting, combat and self defense. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6vdD5HOSgw"]YouTube - Dude N Nem - Watch My Feet[/ame] You can stop substituting the "u" for an "i" now, I think.
Thanks for that vid. Although i already know it well it should help others gain a better understanding of Bujinkan budo. Watch the feet, but don't look at them.
For fun, for fitness, for self defence. I think it is proven to be effective for self defence. No. It certainly helps. The best defence against grappling is grappling itself, so if in a fight with multiple attackers, the BJJ practitioner would be well prepared to defend against takedowns, and if they do happen to go down or if they slip, then they'll be able to do what is necessary to regain control and get up. I have trained in other styles, but not at the moment.
Because I believe in training in my “holy trinity” BJJ/Judo/Muay Thai. The ground is a neglected area which requires as much attention as everywhere else. No. But it is a fantastic supplement. No. Yes. Because passing the guard and getting back to your feet is a underestimated concept in the “st33t”. Yes. BJJ/Judo/Muay Thai/Bujinkan
For self defense, fitness, and hobby No on its own it is to narrow (with great depth) in its training to cover all the different issues required for a good self defense program. Not for a standup situation. On the ground it would give you an edge. Too narrow in general although against some weapons such as blades it would give a person space and time for a tactical weapon deployment No generally again to narrow. But still has value if it does go to ground especially when tactical weapon deployment is involved Primarily High Performance JKD blended with elements from prior training in boxing, wrestling, Krav Maga, MMA,military combatives, Kajukembo, classical JJJ and yes even some elements from ninjitsu/taijitsu
I agree with you on that. I agree with you again, although I would say that it would depend on the situation. See my comment above. This would be one area that it is lacking in. Nice reply. Usually when this subject of multiples comes up, the common replies are, 1: that nothing works and 2: to kick them in the groin and run. Do you work on various drills involving multiples to aid in that area? In other words, there are various drills to work on a smooth flow from one position to the other, etc., so I'm curious about the multiples. Thank you.
Agreed on those points. I agree with that. Getting back up should take a priority over staying on the ground.
Good points. Certainly interesting that you're the second person to say this, considering its billed as top notch self defense. Is this typically covered in the average BJJ class? Do you work on this at all? Personally I think its pretty interesting to roll while one person, or even both people, have weapons. Cool.
I'm back from a little mod-inspired vacation - let me respond in kind: You are right on with this one. But then again I am not shy about the fact I don't have much respect for Topher or his posts in this sub-forum. More on that in a bit... An "or" statement there... nice. I guess either he is a troll OR a genuinely curious member just trying to have great conversation. Right. My issue with Topher isn't about the "correctness" of his POV. It is just about the manner he posts his POV. He isn't here to gain answers - he has posted many times now with incorrect *assertions*. Let me repeat this - assertions. If he was unsure - he would ask. He instead asserts all kinds of things that are frankly off base by a considerable margin. He is in the Ninjutsu Sub-forum literally telling us what is and is not (the latest example is that "taijutsu" is a sub-component of "Ninjutsu"). All of that with NO time spent in the art. Zero. Just YouTube experience. And then he builds arguments on top of those poor assumptions. I disagree - but there is no way to prove it regardless so this is moot. To paraphrase Bill Hicks: I don't mean to come across as dismissive and condescending, but I am, so that's how it comes out. ;-) More importantly - it shouldn't be my job as a practitioner of the art featured in this sub-forum to ferret out what his intentions are. I shouldn't have to wade through many incorrect assertions (you would think that once he was corrected several times he would start putting question marks after things he isn't sure about...) to find out if he really has a heart of gold and is yearning for knowledge about a system he has no intention of ever studying. You are right - next time I will just ignore him. I don't have to explain anything to anyone as far as I know... Seriously - where do you get that? I *love* a good conversation with people who disagree with me. I am a member over at Bullshido. I have no idea where you got that from... I do - however - have problems with someone who really isn't interested in talking about what we do in the sub-forum :: but is intent on making everyone understand the awesomeness of Tacos and Beer. To make this a touch clearer - let's look a touch closer to the reasoning behind Tophers post just before I was booted for being too harsh on him: All video's in this sub-forum are apparently subject to the "would it work for self-defense" scrutiny because some people list Self-Defense as their reason for training (which means it is up for comparison against the MT Aliveness 101 Blog). Does this make sense to anyone else? Anyone? What if I told you I have had students who liked Taijutsu because it makes them better dancers? Or students who admitted they were in class because they were interested in dating someone... Should we evaluate Adam's video on those merits? I could go on and on and on with examples - and make the more and more ridiculous. Let me tell you what I see when I read Topher's post : The Self-Defense connection is the ONLY connection that can be made to re-introduce the concept of Taco's and Beer (which honestly is the only thing he seems interested in conversing about). Do some people eat spaghetti to stay alive? Oh - so it has nutritional value? Great - so does Taco's and Beer - and let me tell you how awesome it is. I can't believe you would want to eat a meal that didn't include Taco's and Beer. The reason I keep bringing up the experience card is because I have "relevant experience" to the topic he is selling. He conveniently ignores this in his replies. I will reply to his post next on that. True that - well done fellas. -Daniel
On the contrary - I would love a rational discussion on topic. I don't see what people's goals have to do with evaluation of video. Maybe you can help me bridge the gap. There isn't an argument. See below on why the focus is on personal experience. Let's not go on - instead let's look at why I post about experience. I didn't say "I have been driving for longer than have" - I said I have been training for longer. More importantly - I have been training for longer in both the BJK and in "modern" systems as well. The argument that you *want* to have with us / me is why we all aren't training *alive* the way YOU think we should (everyone should). Which is why I am reminding you again that I have done more "alive training" than you have at this point - so if I am still happy in the BJK then there is a reason why - because it isn't ignorance regarding MT's SBG System. Again - there isn't an argument here. You were trying to shoehorn a rather weak tie from personal motives to video critique to restart your Tacos and Beer discussion. I am not interested in having that conversation with you - not because I can't hold my side of the conversation (I have answered this exact question MANY times before) - but rather that you have zero interest in the arts from this sub-section other than intellectual curiousity. And I don't cater to people who want to use my time to simply satisfy their curiousity. If you were a prospective student - or someone with genuine interest in what we do (as opposed to someone who is geinuinely curious as to why we don't see things their way) - I would give you a hand. I have made an intelligent decision and can speak knowledgeably about both sides of the equation. You can't speak for anything on the Ninjutsu side of the equation that you didn't cull from YouTube and Bullshido - which makes your questions rather unoriginal and boring to me. Maybe others here will want to jump into the fray to help satisfy your curiousity - because that is all you are here for (or am I wrong?)... I see what you are saying - but you are being a bit duplicitous here. Let me explain using Connovar's example from later in this thread: In your posts before - you have effectively said that the Bondurant School doesn't actually teach good driving. That based on what you have seen - the way they teach their course can't produce good drivers because the participants don't actually have live fire bad guys shooting back in real time. The natural response from any graduate of the Bondurant School will be to ask you what your experience with the school is - and what you have seen to make you say that. And your response here is literally the equivalent of "I have played Grand Theft Auto on my X-box". But that shouldn't matter - right? In theory - you are right. Reality is that dealing with someone like Connovar is that he has past experience in the art (even if it is 15 yrs past) - so when we discuss things - I know he has a clue as to what he is talking about - and we discuss the differences in training knowledgeably. He and I disagree often - but I suspect he understands where I come from and I certainly understand where he is coming from... You know - I don't get into ****ing contests with experienced Martial Artists. When I show up to a Throwdown - I will at most get an interesting side look before we get to it and play. No one at the TD is trying to "convert me" to tacos and beer. You see - that is the difference between us. I can sit down with the Taco's and Beer crowd and enjoy a good meal at *their table* without being disruptive. When I am rolling with someone at a TD, I don't claw them in the eye and yell "Eye-Gouge FTW" - then proceed to lecture everyone on the finer points of mobility and dirty tricks - and why everyone there should be eating Italian food instead of their crap tacos (which - by the way - I would be completely in the theoretical right to do). That is because I am at their table... and honestly - I am there to learn how to make better tacos (even if it isn't my fav food). The conversation is just a lot more meaningful to me if the other person said "I have had a LOT of Italian food - but I prefer Tacos and here is why". That is why experience is relevant. If you can find someone (like Asia on BShido) who has a fair amount of experience in the art and still wants to discuss theoretical differences in training methods - let me know. I won't have to spend half the time killing poor assumptions made about the foundation of the art so we can even begin discussing the theory at equal footing... -Daniel PS. The other reason my experience is relevant comparatively is that I have had tacos and beer - and you haven't had Italian. It is also the reason why CKava (Chris) knows I can head into the BJJ sub-forum and wreck it. I know what I am talking about and it isn't based on YouTube or Guitar Hero or what other people told me...
That was painful, LOL, all 13 pages. To address the question to Topher of why I train.... I enjoy the strategies, concepts, and the people (sometimes, LOL). I learned how to fight in previous arts and I lived in an area where fighting was almost an everyday occurance for many. I thought I was pretty good in the other arts I studied. Also, I was a survivor a few times over outside the dojo and wanted to continue surviving and what "I" found was extremely helpful to me. When I found the Bujinkan, I learned there was something out there for me beyond the normal crash and bash (what was common 25 years ago). I came along at a time when Hatsumi Sensei had to prove himself many times over to outsiders and his own students. I witnessed and FELT how training went in the early 80's. There were many injuries and issues that were caused at that time, but it was a great time don't get me wrong. Proving what you could do meant much and many times this didn't keep students. Many people I knew had major issues (confusion) when the 90's came along and the next wave of training came along. My favorite quote of Hatsumi Sensei goes something like, "You must steal from this art to learn." I think many instructors are great at what they do, but it is impossible for many to learn concepts of nine martial arts at one time and properly convey them. Hatsumi Sensei has encouraged us to learn from different teachers and even other arts many times over. So learning what you want outside isn't bad thing, but can be confusing if you can't change mechanics/movement when needed. I really like the training now more than ever, but I think the yearly themes might be too much for many of us. Begginers need to focus on Kihon (with and without ressitance), but also learn what they feel they need to learn. For me the fighting part isn't as important any more (anyone can fight), it's the strategies of winning. There will always be someone faster, stronger, or even more technical than us. I like the art also because I do learn how to think outside the box, as well as meet great people from around the world. For me it applies to many things outside of the dojo. The day I returned from Afghanistan in September, I showered up, changed clothes and went outside to play with my two daughters. I was wearing dress shoes after wearing combat boots for several months so I felt really uncomfortable walking around, let alone running. We were playing tag and I tripped while running full speed and was able to execute zenpo kaiten (forward roll) with no issues. (I run a 1246 minute two mile run and can sprint well for a crusty *******) My neighbors and family freaked out big time, but because of my training, I didn't have to visit the hospital my first day home. So, once again I like the training, LOL. Sorry for the long post. V/R, Lee :woo:
Daniel I don't have time to respond to your points but I read them and you make some interesting points! I also really appreciate you laying them out so clearly and even sans insults (!) . Welcome back!
Hissatsu I wonder why you bothered replying if you have no interest in this discussion? Anyway... As I have said, repeatedly, if training with self defence in mind, as many Taijutsu/Ninjutsu practitioners do, and as many Ninjutsu schools advertise their classes, then obviously you want to use the training methods which are best for self defence, and that is live training (and I don't mean turn it into an MMA class, I just mean work the self defence drills realistically, with resistance). I'm sure there are schools that do this, and maybe yours is one of them, however that is not the trend that you find in peoples training videos. To suggest that the training that can be found online is not representative of the overall system (i.e. the training your most likely to come across) is ridiculous. I'm curious why you think an analysis based on that material is inappropriate? I'm sure if it was excellent and highly regarded training there wouldn't be a problem. You're likely to tell me to visit a class and then form an opinion, however visiting a class is not necessarily the way to form an opinion of the overall style. You can certainly view training in videos and spot consistencies within the training, and that is all I am doing. Of course, if self defence isn't a goal then obviously it doesn't matter if the training isn't realistic, nevertheless classes are still advertised for such a purpose. You're absolutely right that I have an "intellectual curiosity" on the matter, but so what? Why is curiosity a problem? I'm not a prospective student but so what, it doesn't mean my interest is any less legitimate. I'm not trying to ask why you don't do things "my way" rather I am trying to establish whether it is typical within the style to include the best training methods for self defence, when self defence is a goal. I am interested because what I have seen does not confirm that. The impression that I get from you is that anyone at "your table" you has to play by your rules and not criticise. That would be fine if there were two totally distinct purposes of training, but when two sides often share the same purpose, such as self defence, then clearly one of them has the better, more effective training for that purpose.
