What is MMA?

That would all be really great to discuss, K. I think I made a mistake in believing these folks were up to it, though. For instance, if somebody said to me......"Hapkido is a LOT like Modern Dance, isn't it?" OK....lets work with that; this might be how it IS and how its NOT. If a person really wants to dialogue a comeback like "you really don't know a thing about Hapkido, do ya! Hapkido is NOTHING like Modern Dance!! Get a clue will ya?!?" ain't gonna do it.

Yes I HAVE been in MA since 1973. What I have found is that the people who really WANT to talk about what they do find a way to do it.

The others don't.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

So equating MMA to dogfighting (and in doing so mischaracterising both) is your idea of approaching this subject with respect?
Because where I'm sitting it was anything but.

Yeah it can be on the cusp I suppose. But I think the training in Shidokan, with belts and grades and sensei/sempai, linework, kata etc stops it from being like MMA even though the outward competition element can look like it.

 

Sorry to disagree with you Bruce, but I do believe there are adequate explanations of MMA through this thread, explaining the methods of teaching, the rules of a bout, and even talk on styles involved (although those are by the nature of MMA unlimited).

 

The shidokan competitions are what I was talking about. Anyone from any style can (in principle) fight in shidokan events. They have to train in multiple arts to do well and the rules cover all ranges. How well the shidokan karate schools prepare you for that, I don't know. Never trained in one. But their events are an interesting variation on the MMA theme.

 

And the thread goes to Bigmikey

*unsubscribe*

 

Okay Bruce I'll bite. What answers are you looking.
We've told you MMA is not a style but a competitive format like k1.
We told you how various athletes train and what they train in and for.
We've even given you info on the profits and business of major MMA competition organisers.

I'm confused about what else we haven't told you.
What would you like to know?

 

I don't think anybody is suggesting that. I do wonder how much MMA you've actually observed though. How many UFC events have you seen? How many MMA training sessions have you sat in on? Etc.

I only ask because I don't think that any abstract explanation is going to hold a candle to the simple act of observing.

 

Bruce doesnt want his preconceived ideas challenged, he'll only be happy when their reinforced so he can belive grappling is suicidal in any and all situations.

 

Alright, ignoring the "you guys are dense, cage fighting is stupid" comments, I'll try to continue to focus on education.

Bruce, when I asked you why you thought KK was "very MMA-like", you responded with three points:

1) KK had a higher level of contact during sparring, and used modern targetting equipment. This is compatable with MMA training, though the obvious restriction on head contact is not. Still, this pragmatic approach is why the most common karate background among MMA fighters is KK and its offshoots, represented in fighters like Georges St-Pierre, Katsunori Kikuna, Ryo Chonnan, Shonie Carter, and Pat Smith, among others.

2) You made a vague referrence to not always stepping back if someone got knocked down. I'd wish you'd elaborate on what exactly happened. At the same time, based on what I know about KK and what I know about MMA, I would suggest the biggest difference would be that KK is mostly about hitting, while in MMA, striking or grappling are equally viable options depending on how ones skill stack up against that of ones opponent. In other words, I doubt the takedown or extended ground grappling was the sought-after goal in your KK classes. I especially doubt that the grappling was as elaborate as this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtk0bQlmqnM&feature=relmfu"]Emily Kwok - BJJ Techniques - Chained Cross Side Attacks - BJJ Weekly #053 - YouTube[/ame]

Or that grappling was drilled or explained as systematically as this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8940871/BJJ-Roadmap-13

3) Kata was made functional. While the emphasis on functional training is something MMA emphasizes, kata is not, at least at this stage, with some minor exceptions. At any rate, it is hardly a stapple of MMA training.

Also take into consideration these differences between KK and MMA:

-KK is a closed system. It has a specific founder, lineage, curriculum, Dojo Kun, etc. MMA is an open system (not "system" as in "martial art", but process) that has no specific founder, lineage, or curriculum. Bringing in outside techniques and strategies is encouraged.

-KK is primarily about striking. Hitting the guy hard. That is their medium. MMA holds striking and grappling in equal value relative to the situation. If I want to take the guy to the ground using grappling, and finish him off with a submission hold, MMA will let me do that; Kyokushin will not.

-KK is bareknucke and performed in a gi. MMA uses gloves and board shorts. Small but important distinction.

Really, KK is more like Muay Thai than MMA. Codified, full-contact striking system with a specific set of cultural trappings and rituals.

To further illustrate what MMA is "about", here's a highlight of guys in Phuket doing strength and conditioning for MMA. You'll notice it's a variety of exercises, including agility drills, sprints, full-body exercises (tire flips, sledgehammer swings), and Olympic-inspired lifts:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwCFAw-js8k"]MMA Strength And Conditioning With Boyd Clarke at Phuket Top Team MMA Training Camp - Thailand - YouTube[/ame]

Here's highlights of an MMA beginners class. The technique work is identifyable to me as Western wrestling (perhabs a little bit of Catch with that standing back escape), BJJ/Judo, and striking that looks like it's from Muay Thai:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBERIPlMPHU"]Beginners MMA Classes @ extremefighters.co.uk - YouTube[/ame]

Here's another one. This particular workout emphasized striking, but given that it's a BJJ gym, that's little surprise, as I'm sure they get ample ground grappling on a regular basis. At about the five-minute mark, they start incorporating takedowns into their punching combinations, and the clip finishes with the students ground grappling in MMA gloves:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9qmBTd_vo"]MMA Class HighLights Titan Martial Arts - YouTube[/ame]

This is what MMA training CAN look like, though it's not limited to those formats.

The thing is, Bruce, it's hard to not look at your ignorance of MMA as willful. You've been in martial arts since 1973. Shooto was founded in 1985. "Shootfighting" came out in the late '80's/early '90's. Pancrase and the UFC both had their first events in 1993. The Unified Rules have been around since 2000ish. The UFC has been on basic cable since 2005, and other MMA organizations (Bodog Fight, IFL, Pride FC replays, Bellator, Strikeforce, XFC, even old-school Pancrase if you catch the right channel) have been on TV since then. While they're edited specifically to maximize drama/storytelling, reality shows like "The Ultimate Fighter" and specials like "Countdown to UFC [insert number here]" will give you insights into how MMA fighters train, and will focus on the fighters as individuals. Plus, there's the internet: the "recommended reading" list I gave you was a very, very minute portion of the information to be found online. So not only has information about MMA been around, it's been around for nearly two decades (I'm counting 1993 as the "birth" of modern MMA), and has been mainstream for about seven years. It's pretty accessable, and it seems that anyone who wanted to know about it would have already accessed it.

And what exactly is preventing you from finding a local MMA gym and, at the very least, sitting in and observing some classes, if you chose not to participate? Surely the best way to understand what something is "about" is to experience it? I'm also currious as to how much MMA you've been exposed to off these boards. How many matches have you watched? How many full events? And have you looked at the "recommended reading" list I've provided?

 

Thank you, Callsign.....that wasn't so darn tough now was it? Plenty of great info, pulled-together in a neat package...and very much appreciated.

The only other thing I would mention is the matter of motive...that is ...the idea of "willful ignorance". I'm not too sure how best to say this other than to state that I have been very happy with my years in Hapkido. Its met my needs, offered sound training, reflects how I view the World (at least to some extent), is rather open-ended as far as study. Most of what I see in many of these threads is some veiled effort to cause a person to be unhappy with what they have and to promise greater satisfaction somewhere else. I guess I'm just not "recruiting material" and I have not found MMA attractive enough to spend my time chasing it down. As I said on another thread, it just does not have the Soul I am looking for and the rest of the touting seems to be all about conflict which is a pretty small part of a person's life unless they are willfully looking for it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

It's not a binary relationship. No one is trying to "convert" you. Learning about another system, any system, though research, observation, and even participation isn't turning your back on Hapkido. After all, you've apparently got enough experience in four different karate systems to compare and contrast their training methods.

This thread was started because you wanted to know more about MMA, even implying that information about it was being withheld from you. Now I'm willing to talk about it all day, but how much of your own research have you put in? As Ap said, watching a UFC event or sitting in on a class will tell you volumes more than these posts will. Except if you want history, in which case I'm more than happy to provide that bit, but the point remains. It just seems odd to me to have someone complain that they're not being told enough about MMA when they haven't put forth the effort to do any research themselves.

 

Wow so you were raging at pasmith and various other people in this thread simply because you were to lazy to read and comprehend posts. Callsign just reiterated every point made by others.
Wow just wow.

In contrast: thank you to other various hapkido practionners who have opened up to MMA or have otherwise been involved and expressed their point of view on MMA.

 

As I said a few pages back. Wiki had the same info as you and all of us have posted. Just nee to invest te time into research

 

You're welcome

 

It's not a "veiled effort to cause someone to be unhappy with what they have" to point out that what they practice is not producing the results they seek or expect. If the person doing the training ignores that fact, that's fine, but you can't fault us for pointing it out both for that person's sake and for the sake of anyone who may see the discussion later on.
It's one thing to practice something for fun and not care about the results but for those who actually want to improve themselves or attain proficiency, this is important information. This does not neccesarily mean fighting competitively but frankly if you want to actually practice a martial art and gain a working understanding of it and ability to actually perform it, then the training methods involved are some of the best. When the results of your training show up every day you go to class, there are no excuses. You are either improving or you are not and it is clear to everyone involved.

 

I find it quite amusing that Bruce is continually chastising the members in this thread (and others) for operating at an intellectual level that is insufficient for fruitful debate whilst simultaneously failing to grasp even the most basic of concepts and being too lazy and too sheltered to do even the most cursory of independent research to enable him to engage with the topic at hand. He talks as if there is a culture here to withhold information regarding MMA but aside from his almost irrelevant (from an MA perspective) question about the merchendising and business structure of the various MMA orgs, the topics covered in this thread so far, such as: training methods, individual disciplines that comprise the majority of MMA practice etc have been covered multiple times on these boards (some ad nauseum). Not only that but this sort of information is so freely available elsewhere to any inquiring mind that its frankly ridiculous. The whole thread reeks of willful ignorance, baiting and disingenuity.

 

Bruce here is a pretty solid video which demonstrates the way gi grappling of all disciplines is trained and can be integrated into both MMA, grappling and street fighting...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDpew6PXkdY"]Sensei Roy responds to the critics - YouTube[/ame]

 

I don't practice MMA myself. I don't have the personality for competition. Never had. (Never mind the conditioning.) But I do think that the MMA training approach has a lot to offer proponents of other styles. Keep the baby. Toss the bathwater.

 

Gorillas, that was awesome! I am going to make pulling someone into north-south a major goto move. If nothing else they are going to be going WTF??? The belts were awesome as well.