What is he doing?

...Indeed; only if the person applying knows what their doing of course. The application of mawashi hiji ate should be more of a blending redirection of the 'attack' rather than a block or 'strike' as the name specifically suggests.

It is actually one of my more favourite ways of dealing with close quarter encounters, it leads to several techniques very nicely.

Dave

 

haha, pwned.

 

I like this response, because now I'm starting to realize (or get a general idea of) how an Aikido practitioner percieves an attack (if used in a self defense situation that is). In Kenpo, we try and train ourselves to percive how a strike is being performed (if we are the defensive) with the body...apparently much like Aikido. We watch the hips, shoulders, and rotation of the body to figure out how exactly we can begin contact manipulation* in a specific situation.

I totally agree. I'm starting to like this Aikido thing more and more...

thanks, I'll look into it.

 

same as kenpo. The problem I'm having though is that most of the attacks just seem nutty. I realize that the movements might be scripted and slowed down (so that a technique can actually be walked through and learned), but the attack in itself should be effective in the first place (if you are tracking the weapon for instance)

again, same in Kenpo. What is randori?

this response is also very helpful. I like how you say "move like the style", because really, that is how almost every martial art is taught. The natural evolution of skill and experience then slowly becomes transformed into something completely personal, but still justifiably within and under the aegis of the specific style or art.

You'd be a good teacher with just that info. I agree wholeheartedly.

this makes me confused though. Are you saying that other styles are innately predictable? Or are only predictable because a student has learned within the specific system and realizes "how" a technique should be implimented?

Which is scary, but oh so poignant.

thanks for the response, this really is starting to get me to understand why all you Aikidoka love this so much.

 

No, I disagree that an attack should be effective in the first place. I believe for learning purposes, an attack should be applied in a realistic manner, whether effective or not. I don't like it when a dojo (training hall) becomes a social club with people talking about the weather and the last movie they saw while conducting training -- Even if the attacks are effective and intensive, because it isn't training with realism.

On the other hand, training can happen at different speeds and intensity. I don't mind training weapon drills at half speed to work on technique. For instance, someone might just advance forward with a knife extended, but do so at half normal speed. A half speed attack would not be effective at all in the streets, but if done with realism (resistance and intent) in training, it can be a valuable exercise. If you can get an Aikido technique to work against a half-speed attack, you know you have your technique very good because you can't use speed and strength to compensate for technique (when going slowly).

What school of Kenpo do you train in? I train in Kajukenbo, so we have some common roots.

Oh, randori is a form of sparring basically means anything goes (ran = chaos in Japanese), but is always controlled for safety and learning. Randori in Aikido usually consists of multiple attackers against one.

Thanks and you have a good way with words too.

Cool.

I'm saying that long-time students tend to move in a manner that is similar to their teachers. Under the same pretense, a student trained in a style will begin to move in a manner that is similar to others that study that same style.

Although this is thought to be necessary in building a foundation (and I agree that is helps a lot), it inherently causes the students to become more predictable. It is the same as with any style or sport, I have reviewed video tapes of fighters and such to see how they move, etc. This "style" can be used against you if that is all you really know.

For instance, after years in karate, I started Aikido. They knew I had a background in karate based on just how I moved in class. This gave them some kind of advantage if I would have been a karate beginner or intermediate because they would better be able to predict my movements.

However, it did not give them an advantage because I was a beginner in a different sense, I was a black belt, which meant I was a beginner ADVANCED student, meaning I had built a foundation and now could apply variations.

Maybe what I wrote is confusing, let me give a few examples. One time I was being shown a variation of Ikkyo (a sort of arm bar) and the Sensei (I think 5th degree at the time) came at me with a palm strike to my face. The preconditioned karate response is a age uke (rising block), however, I instead did a deflection block (like a boxer since I had trained kickboxing as well). The Ikkyo did not work because it was not set up, the Aikido Sensei then went back and told me that I block different and to use a rising block the next time so he could show me the move. I did what he asked and when the palm strike to my face came, I did a rising block. He immediate blended into the block and controlling my elbow and arm, put me into Ikkyo (arm bar). If he had caught me with maybe seven less years of karate training, I might have used rising block as my first choice.

Another example, I think this was a seventh or eighth degree Aikido Sensei was demonstrating a counter to a spinning back kick. The counter was to kick the person in the butt, basically, as they turned around. He knew I could do the kick as I was a karate black belt, so he asked me to be the Uke (attacker). So I stood there waiting. He said go and I spun around with a straight back kick, I caught him with my kick before he could counter. My speed and technique was too fast for what he expected. He then instructed me to throw a more circular spin kick (more like a heel hook), and then his counter worked every time.

I guess my point is that if I had been a karate brown belt, the stuff they were doing might have worked a lot more on me. My style could have been used against me. However, I had many more years under my belt than that, I had started on my long journey to move beyond the style, building on that foundation, so I ended up being more unpredictable then they thought or were used to.

Aikido may or may not have something of value for you, but you seem interested. I would a say that interest is good and whatever you train in, just keep training. Just keep training... ultimately that is what is important.

 

I think I might have misrepresented what I was trying to point out. I believe that, if you are to train against a specific attack (or from an attack that comes from the same angle, postion etc), it should be an effective attack in the sense that it is mechanically sound, not that the attack strikes the defender, haha.

Where did this come from? personally, I agree (I rarely like MA clubs anyway, they are, literally, "clubs" which connotates a social gathering), but I still don't understand exactly what you are trying to contrast between an effective and a realistic strike. A correctly implimented attack is both, hence, the title of effective. It works in realistic situations as a realistic attack.

understandable, and I think I might have mislead you. I'm not saying that allattacks to practice technique should be implimented at full speed and intensity, I'm saying that, if a strike that is to be defended against in training is used, it should be sound. Review the beginning of the forum to re-evalutate why I had problems with the attacks in Aikido training...they made no realistic sense.

absolutely, that was never a conflicting topic.

actually, it's kinda funny. My sifu broke away from the American System because an old teacher (who will remain nameless) tried to screw him over legally and steal his school from him (long story). So, he broke away and continues with his own specific style of training that mostly takes after Chinese Kenpo Karate.

I've also never heard of Kajuknebo. I'll look into it.

thanks!

aww, you say that to all the boys. ;

I getcha, I was just confused, thanks for the clarification. I also agree, but of course, everybody moves differently, because everybody works better in different ways.

hence, me wanting to find another method of cross-training. I've noticed that.

thanks a bunch, and that last bit of wisdom is very true.

 

That was never a point of discussion, nor could what I was saying even be interpreted that way (generally, that is). I was discussing the merits of defending against an improbable attack, not necissarily that they were wrong.

cool, but you still misunderstood what I was trying to say.

 

If you are saying that the attacks seen in Aikido are unrealistic, and after re-reading you posts, I believe that is the issue, then I agree.

That probably is the number one issue with Aikido in general against its value towards a goal of self-defense. Although the techniques and concepts in Aikido are quite sound in my opinion based on experience, the methods of training used in Aikido seldom have the realism of a real fight.

Point taken and so first I will state that the majority of Aikidoka consider their training for self-development and not self-defense as the primary reason for training. However, those that want to apply Aikido towards self-defense over time, find that realism in training is necessary.

So all I can say is that when a student is ready, which could be day one for some, they should train with realism in Aikido in order to be better prepared for a self-defense situation.

The question then is when is a student ready to try out Aikido verse aggressive attackers using more realism?

 

that was the issue, and I'm glad.

Personally? As soon as it could be taught.

 

Just wanted to point out to Yoda that "UFC nutter" is actually a complement.

As in, "now that I've completed all the forms, I could take two of those Thai boxers in the ring without breaking a sweat...

but come on! I'm not going into a ring with some UFC nutter!"

Is does imply a berserker, someone whose power is palpable but whose self control might be absent - therefore not an unmixed compliment.