This thread is about complexity versus simplicity in martial arts. How much complexity is needed and can complexity make things worse. I will start with an analogy that describes to me the problem. Firstly let's look at martial arts as a salad bar in a restaurant. A customer is a consumer, picking and combining those dishes at the salad bar that they like. Being a consumer is absolutely necessary to taste the food and see how they like it. A salad bar could have hundreds of dishes, maybe I'm a mac & cheese guy and you are a Caesar salad... but we both can be happy at the salad bar. Being a consumer, you need to learn how to taste food and know the ingredients. The issue is that being a consumer is only half the process. Someone has to prepare and make the dishes. A chef is a producer. When a chef learns to prepare food, for good quality, it becomes necessary to learn the fundamentals/principles such as how to find tasty and fresh ingredients, how to use a sharp knife properly, how to sharpen knives, how to present the dishes, etc. The chef also needs recipes to follow. A recipe is where the details separate the ordinary from the extraordinary. For example, my grandma's mac & cheese recipe just might be much better than the one on the side of the box of Kraft mac & cheese over and beyond the freshness of the ingredients. What is grandma's secret? A martial artist needs to be both consumer and producer. 1) Taste and experience different aspects to see what works for you (consumer = test it out and experience it) 2) Learn and apply the good fundamentals and principles that make things work (producer = build the structure and drill the fundamentals) 3) Perfect it (producer = secret recipe, consumer = figure out secret ingredients) There is only so much time that can be spent on training. To me the most important use of time is #2, principles and fundamentals because these apply more broadly across different martial arts. I think that it is easy to neglect any area, but all areas are needed. What is the minimum needed for good martial arts? Can I skip the secret recipe and just use the one on the side of a box and be good enough? Can I just focus on fundamentals for a limited set of tasks, skipping other fundamentals, and still have practical application? Can I only pick those things I like to test out and never try other things and be okay?
What do you want it to do? A Fiat Punto does essentially the same job as a Lamborghini.....but one is markedly better by most measures
I think you're overthinking it , you need to train the fundamentals relevant to what you want to achieve , no more , no less Actually , as much as I dislike Fiats , on a day to day basis the answer may not be what you think.
I think most must want something that is practical for them. All that is needed is to use what is practical for you. This would be the minimum bar. However, in using only what is thought to be practical, I think this neglects some of the idea of martial arts being more than what is practical just for me... what about what is practical for everyone else? There are multiple layers of more complexity when it comes to what is practical application for everyone in all situations. I can't afford a Fiat Punto or Lamborghini. One reason is the cost up front, another is the maintenance cost, and even another is the cost of the lifestyle changes. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to drive one or learn how they work.
That would be the minimum. The above recipe leads to watered down martial arts. It is exactly the kind of scenario where one generation can change or neglects the details because they aren't as good at it as those that came before.
I disagree , drilling the fundamentals to a decent level allows you to achieve more when you move on. To put it another way , what use would learning groundwork be to a boxer ?
What use would learning groundwork be to anybody? I'll tell you. Useless, that's what. Ha! Only kicking people in the face is good enough. Squat deep. I need to lay off the coffee.
I don't disagree with you though. I already posted: "To me the most important use of time is #2, principles and fundamentals..." I think we need to be honest and break up fundamentals into good and bad. I agree that good fundamentals are universal and let you achieve much more (they are the building blocks). However, take the case of a group that learned to fight for tournament by coming in backwards to the opponent and using only back kicks. The premise was that the back was not a legal target and no grappling was allowed. They did develop good fundamentals for using a back kick but you have to admit, the idea of fighting with your back turned to the enemy is fundamentally flawed. I know the above is an extreme case. A less extreme case is how stick and knife fundamentals help to improve unarmed fundamentals, including boxing. Stick and knife fundamentals also help improve ground fighting due to tendency for people to grab weapons and limbs in close quarters. Ground fighting fundamentals would be less value to boxing, but given the context of clinching against the ropes or side of a cage, ground fighting fundamentals on mobility while grappling would apply.
Simple is better then complicated, simple doesn't mean easy, it just means its more resilient under pressure. I like to spend 80% of my time on them and 20% on fun stuff.
Some wrestlers don't mind to learn the ground skill but don't want to learn the striking skill (they don't want to be hit on the head with full power everyday). Can they skip the striking skill training and still be able to deal with strikers such as boxers, MT guys, CMA guys, ...? Can you - move in with proper entering strategy, - avoid being kicked and punched, - obtain a successful clinch, - take your opponent down, and - start your ground game? I think it's possible. But I just need more testing to draw the conclusion. If it's possible to completely skip the striking art training, it will save people training time tremendously.
