I was at the Asian Celebration on Saturday and Sunday, y'know, for our school's demo, when I saw about two Aikido schools (One was strictly Aikido, the other was like the Oregon Ki Society or something) and saw both their demo's. Basically, the one that was strictly Aikido just showed mostly rolling around and then jumping over people and rolling behind them. I knew that this could be easily done. I expected to see more, but basically all I saw after that was maybe one or two wrist grabs from knives and maybe one gun self defense. Not trying to come off rude, but these guys rolled around for like half the demo. Not even kidding. Maybe it's just the way Oregon is, but maybe someone can enlighten me on what Aikido is really about? :woo:
What’s aikido about?! What’s football about? What’s cooking about? Does the question have a universal answer? One possible answer is that aikido is about not getting hurt. For example, boxers stand in front of each other and play tag: I hit you, you hit me, I hit you, you hit me, back and forth, back and forth. When you play that game, you get hit, and when you get hit, you get hurt. Aikido people aren’t into pain so they don’t play that game. Aikido people get out of the way. They never stand in front of someone, toe-to-toe, as the punches come. They get out of the way, and they get out of the way, and they keep getting out of the way. Sometimes getting out of the way involves being willing to take a fall, so rolling is a big part of aikido training. Why the aversion to pain? Some would say it’s because “aikido is love.” Reading the little yellow book The Art of Peace would give a person that idea. Aikido people don’t want to get hurt, and we don’t want to hurt you either. We don’t want any person anywhere to get hurt. We love you. :love:
The more postings I read the more it seems to highlight how hard it is for anyone watching aikido to get a real sense of the 'why' and 'how' of all this rolling about. It could be they are watching bad aikido, but even good stuff can easily mislead an onlooker. Won't go over old ground but my style of aikido uses pain as a central part of some techniques. What's important is not to inflict unnecessary damage - pain comes with the territory. In the dojo we can do that - in SD you can't guarantee the outcome of atemi, locks or throws but I'm guessing pain would be the least of your worries.. but it fits UK laws about 'reasonable force' pretty well IMHO. (Of course, at my age, my main priority is to get by without pain or damage......... .........to ME!)
Didn't I read that O Sensei interpreted love and harmony when old and sick by breaking his uke's arm for not attacking hard enough in a demo? He was no doubt showing his love for them in teaching them that 'ai' can sometimes mean harmonising with some pretty tough 'ki'. Of course, the story may be untrue...?
In honesty, I haven't read it so I can't interpret it however; Idealistic philosophical beliefs IE "Aiki is love" and the physical skills of the discipline can and often are very different. Firstly let me say I've played this discussion out to its extremes on this forum before and, with greatest respects I don't want to repeat myself, suffice to say I respect everyone's opinion thusly I modestly expect that in return. For me Aikido is a martial discipline, influenced by classical weapons and born from arts such as Daito Ryu, nothing more or less. As an individual I choose how I wish to employ it, either with direct intent which results in injury (and I have no remorse for this if its in response to physical assault upon me my family or friends) or, applied in a less aggressive way with immobilisation as my primary aim. Either way it’s my choice based not on a philosophical belief of a man I never met in an age which has long past but, on circumstances and situations presenting themselves to me, personally. Kind regards
That's why I said above, "Does the question have a universal answer? One possible answer is that ..." See, we're on the same page.
hmmmmm... Hugs, everyone.. Thought this might clarify? :Angel: "Budo is not the felling of the opponent by force, nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction by arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature." --Morihei Ueshiba Aikido I hope so...blessings... luv, Jess
But I'm pretty sure that to stop pain, you must inflict it on the one that is spreading it. Is this not logical? By not "hurting" the "bad guy", are you not just letting him get away with hurting others? It would seem more logical that once you have someone on the ground to keep them there, rather than letting them up. Also, the school I saw failed to show a defense against kicks and grabs. Soo... Anyways, light question, not the whole topic of my post, though. So don't ignore my first part. :woo:
IMO no. Aikido is about principles. The HIGHEST principle in Aikido is LOVE. Not all of Aikido is love, there are many principles that go along with each other, like a journey, understanding one principle unlocks the mysteries of many more, like the ten thousands swords, there are ten thousands principles. Love is the highest principle in Aikido reflecting on true budo, it is not the only principle. If you fight and you fight because of love, you have already won... you are a winner because you did it for love. However, that is a spiritual victory, if your body lay dead on the ground and all your comrades dead besides you, you did not win a physical victory. Love by itself only allows for spiritual victories, although important, in day to day life, it is not enough when you have to fight in a physical world.
I feel the need to challenge this... There are SIX primary principles of aikido as given to us by the founder, "LOVE" isn't featured in any of them. "Love" is a philisophical attribute not a physical principle. The six pillars of Aikido: Established by the founder, Morihei Ueshiba The six pillars of Aikido are: 1. Shiho-nage (four direction throw) - This technique represents the gratitude Aikido students feel toward life in all "four directions". 2. Irimi-nage (entering throw). Irimi means "to enter", physically and spiritually, into an attack while simultaneously sidestepping it. 3. Kaiten (open-and-turn movements) - Also described as Kaika (turn and transform), an instantaneous adjustment to any attack. 4. Kokyu-ho (breath-power techniques) - "Breath is the thread that ties creation together. when the.... variations of breath....can be sensed, individual techniques of Aikido are born". 5. Osae-waza (pinning techniques) - "Pins represent perfect control, the proper resolution of a technique." 6. Ushiro-waza (rear techniques). - "Through the practice of rear techniques, one learns how to train one's mind and body against attacks from all directions. Rear techniques open the window of one's mind and foster one's sixth sense". Regards Dave
I learned, or rather this is my interpretation of what my Aikido Sensei taught me. http://www.oneworldaikido.com/ Bear in mind that it has been over ten years since I studied Aikido. I always thought this came to her from John Stevens Sensei as part of what he taught her. She may have not used the words principle, but Love was the most powerful force in Aikido, but you had to work to it, starting from diamond (hard yet brittle)... to fire ... to water ... to air ... to friendship... to love. Okay, don't quote me on this, I thought there were only four levels, so I am way off on the count. Anyway there are principles for physical and for spiritual/mental. Not all principles are based purely on what can be shown on the mat in the dojo. Look it up in the book you are quoting from "Budo" and it will compare principles with the ten thousand swords, use one to unlock the many... there are thousands of principles, the first principle may not be the most important, it is important in it is a key to unlocking the rest, like the pillars you talk about. They are not the most important all the time, they are the starting point, the foundation. Importance is relative to priorities and goals, not written in stone. When I speak it is always in a sense of that is my opinion, unless I list references to back it up. Mostly I talk from my personal experiences. That is what I enjoy doing.
In your original post you said... Yet in your follow-up post you said with reference to the above... Forgive me but you've gone from making a definitive statement " Aikido is about principles. The highest principle of Aikido is love" To now saying that this is merely your "interpretation of what your Sensei taught" The two are quite different. Indeed you go on to say probably the most important and pertinent statement; and this is what many people fail to acknowledge before expressing their opinions which might otherwise lead others to believe something which may be inaccurate. We've crossed this bridge before when it comes to the expression of opinions on this forum however, whilst I fully concede that anything we write may ultimately be considered as nothing more than 'opinion'. To leave opinions unchallenged opens the door to misunderstanding. For me personally the 'talk' of "love" within aikido in the way described is over the top, indeed I feel that many students live a romantic notion of a world united by the study of Aikido. I don't doubt O-Sensei's beliefs but, there are many students of both the founder and the second Doshu who are very martially orientated, equally so I'm sure there are those who are less so, so; I think it is fair to assume that "Love" as you describe is indeed an attribute somewhere within the philosophical/spritual nature of the individuals who study the art however; I have to say, in 16 years I haven't once trained under a Japanese instructor who discussed "love" as an attribute of the art. O-sensei (to my understanding) had a personal belief, a desire that his art known as aikido could be used for the unification of Japan (post WWII) and later the rest of the world. Whilst a noble philosophy it is one which is open to much speculation and misinterpretation. Ai-Ki-Do fundamentally is a martial practice, it contains techniques and applications capable of serious injury and of course death, Aikido is no different to any other Japanese Budo, the student ultimately has the choice of how effective he/she wants their technique to be in any given situation so, the aspect of Aikido being used in a philosophical sense, is absolutely no different to Karate or any number of arts... It’s down to the individual to choose what he or she wants from it. If Aikido is primarily about "love" then the study of its technical content might as well be nothing more than a co-operative dance, which it is not. Regards Dave
Hey Dave, do you have a copy of the little yellow book "The Art of Peace" ? I'd love to hear your comments on it. Such input would be fascinating to me, anyway, and would certainly add to this discussion. I think you are exaggerating. Yes, some people make it a cooperative dance, but I do not believe it necessarily needs to be so. For me the physical movements of aikido have non-physical meanings, and these non-physical meanings when put together promote the ideal that "aikido is love," but I do not practice aikido solely as a cooperative dance. If my uke always cooperates, then he's not being sincere. Sincerity is a component of love. Conclusion: if we always cooperate then we're not promoting the ideal of "aikido is love." So -- my uke has to give me sincere attacks. A sincere attack is an attack that makes me believe that if I don't move, I will get hit/tripped/thrown/kicked/whatever. And, also, sincerity includes showing me where he could escape or reverse a technique when I leave an opening, so that I know where my own weaknesses lie, so that I can fix them.
With precision timeing it is possible to deal with an attack without hurting people. If you take the time to understand how the body moves and where it bends etc, then it is also possible to immobalise an attacker without hurting them. That doesn't mean the attacker won't find the imobalisation uncomfortable or experience pain if they struggle. They will. It just happens to be self-inflicted at that point. Sometimes however it isn't possible to work to that ideal. Sometimes more severe action is required. The point in Aikido for me on one level is to have the choice. The point of all the rolling around is to allow Aikido students to practice Aikido without injury.
The issue and topic of "love" within either the name or physical discipline is discussed in great detail on Aikiweb.com The specific thread is http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7551&page=1&pp=25 The input from Professor P. Goldsbury is particularly informative. Mac, I'll pick up a copy of "Art of peace" and have a read and get back to you okis ? Regards Dave
