Hello all, What a load...stop all the politcal correctness nonsense. It does not belong in the dojang. By the very nature of what we teach, we are upright and correct in our thinking - so why are we worried what "connotation" the word master may have carried? Would anyone question the title in reference to chess players? Routinely they use Master and Grandmaster - yet I hear no political correctness bandwagon jumping there - the word is for mastery of the skill - that is it! Sir is fine, Master is just a title, if you or your students are uncomfortable with the title, get rid of the doboks and belts, put on surfer shorts and an OP shirt and just call each other "dude"...
Many,at least in the US,do not want to use a term like Master,no less Grand Master. They do not want to bow to a foreign Flag. They do not want to learn about Eastern Religion or philosophy. There have been articles in the Martial arts Mags and many on line forums that speak of these changes in view, so much so I know many who just have their students call them by their Name (Mr smith for example),some just a first name. Soon the tide will turn to where we are back to using titles like Mr whatever and Sir,it will be forced on us by those who have no interest in the arts beside the fight/martial aspect. When the arts went from India to China and China to Japan and then Japan to Korea,the names were changed to the National language involved. (The above is the accepted evolution,unless one believes that the arts originated in Korea and then spread in reverse order to that listed above) If we look at recent history ,the 40s,the Koreans were fast to change the names of everything Japanese to Korean,they did not keep the same terms,the West are the ones counting in Korean,using the Korean Terms and words and telling the students they must pass tests in these words and terms.(why are we not counting in japanese where many of these arts originated,if we want to be true or truer than what we portray) Ever other country made the arts theirs,we in the west want to keep the arts to the Nationality found so we feel more legit. As I said,in the late 60s to the late 70s early 80s that I know of,most Korean and Japanese Instructors used the tiles Mr or Sir,they attempted to make the titles Western,we kept the arts national arts of what we claim to be their places of Origin,many that could speak English called moves what they were low Block,Rising Block,Inside Block,Round House kick,side Kick on and on,many came and did not speak English( for an example of a western language). We in the West use these Foreign terms and titles because not long ago Koreans would not promote Westerners to Master,no less Higher ranks.to prove loyalty and to be excepted to be ranked many learned Korean,went to Korea and all in an attempt to be accepted to be ranked. How many Koreans have returned to Japan to train in the arts of where their arts originated? How many go back to Japan and do Shotokan,how many go back and train in Daito Ryu? To Bring it back to the topic at hand: Soon the students in the West will demand the terms and all be changed to their National Language and they will demand the removal of things/traditions not western,the writing is on the wall. Again using the terms Master and GrandMaster these are my views: To be able to have a school one should be certified to what we will call a Master Level,these are the Parents if you will who guide their students/children and show them how to Grow in the arts. A Grand Master is one who has lived long enough to see their children grow and expand the family by having children of their own. A Grand Master should be like a Grand Father,he should see you progress under your Father/Mother/Instructor, he should be there to encourage and further your ambition but at the end of the day you return to your parent/Instructor.
I prefer "Kwan Jang Nim" or the acronym "KJN" for most uses. Or I'll say "my instructor(s)", especially when I'm talking about people across a variety of ranks. When I use the English title, "Master", it's more often with a surname.
I think something else to consider is the parent culture. In Korean culture, titles, especially specific titles, are very important to determining status and place in a situation. The English word "teacher" or "instructor" offers many different translations in Korean, each one with a specific nuance and implication of status. One could argue that learning a Korean art should imply learning parts of the associated culture that goes with it. OIn the other, in America, we also use lots of titles to designate specific levels of rank. Skipping the military model, the civilian world offers lots of "supervisors", "shift supervisors", "assistant manager", "manager", and so on. As a public school teacher, I look up to my "department chair" who looks up to the "principal" who in turn looks up to the "superintendent" in a very clear rank structure and designation of responsibilities. Ultimately to me, my "department chair" may not be a better teacher than I perse, but they have more experience and can offer advice and guidance to me, on teacher or on additional paperwork requirements. My principal's job covers a lot, part of which is to supervise and evaluate me... she may not be a "better teacher" and may br from a different background but her part is to offer guidance, references, advice, and so on to make me better. In the school situation I use these titles for them (or Mr., Mrs. ,Miss, Ms.) to directly give an idea to someone else who they are and what their position in the school is. For a martial arts school, I think titles and ranks have the same purpose and see not problem with them (as long as they are used for that reason and not just ego).
Excellent Replies I would just like to comment that we are getting some excellent replies to this question. Thanks everyone!
Sure does seem like titles are over inflated and belts get watered down and schools over inflate themselves to look good and attract more paying customers. I guess that's what you get if you base the quality of the school on rank of the individuals instead of the quality of instruction & skills of the students. It also seems to mean wholly different things to different people and there are no standards to compare them by. The 'master' thing also generates a whole lot of hoopla. To me it means 'Mr, w/ rank" not that the person owns me or anything silly like that. It's just a word. Also seems like many 'martial arts people' mix and match terms from different styles & cultures based on what people in America understand. One place locally calls itself a 'Karate' school, not only do they not teach Karate, but the owner is often very negative towards other arts (Karate & TKD in particular.) So why call the school 'karate'? The answer is because every American knows what 'karate' means and not many know what Hapkido means. Seems the same holds true for Kwan ja nim (sp?), Master and other terms. Why not use Sensei and be done with it? Everyone in America knows what this means. Even MS Word knows how to spell it. It does seem silly to be claiming uber high titles and have belts which represent a year's work in one discipline and 10 years work in another. I saw several 10 year olds (little children) with a 3rd Dan at one school. What’s that about? I think what it boils down to is: what does it mean to you. If someone is claiming uber high rank you need to ask yourself if you think that's real. Do you really want a black belt that could be earned in a year? or would you rather take 10 years of hard work to reach a 2nd dan? Which is worth more? The belt/rank or the knowledge gained? For me, it's all the knowledge, I'd just as soon wear a whitebelt or no belt and train hard. If we really need designations, stripes of electrical tape on the belt is enough for me. Sure seems like a lot of this ‘promotion’ stuff is so the school can get extra $ every couple months. I do understand that it can be very motivational for some, but I’ve seen way too many people test and pass that were no where near ready. I’d much rather have the skills and proficiency to KNOW that when needed, I can depend on these skills, than be able to say “ohhh, I’m a black belt.” In fact, the very last thing I’d do in a situation where I might need to defend myself is to let them know I have any skills. I’d want it to be a big surprise. On the flip side, it’s my guess that even the worst McDojo is better than sitting on the couch shoveling food in your pie hole and thinking that flicking the remote is exercise. If that’s all you have in your area, take what you can get, but do something good for your mind & body. I think even a bad McDojo is better than nothing.
This all depends on what importance oyu put on titles and the formal ettiquite that goes along with it. Some see it as important, but I can either take it or leave it. Rank was once a way to differntiate between levels but with it becoming a marketing tool, that value is now lost. Partially because anyone can call themselves anything. And having certificates, which may give one a sense of accomplishment, really doesn't add to one's standing. I'll give an example that I have been through myself. I was once member of a world association that gained a reputation for handing out rank, making my certificates worth less even though I earned them and the rank. I left with my instructor when he formed his own association and again the same thing happened. I joined a prestigious association after that and because of their acceptance of a questionable high profile grandmaster, the certificates were questionable again. Although I am nowhere near a "grandmaster" and will never claim to be, the situation is the same for the higher-ups. So now I disregard rank, and look to the knowledge people possess. If they make me feel horribly inept, then they are my senior and definitely get the respect that confers. And really that is what the whole title thing was based on in the first place, no?
hi, the master at my school is a grand master, and the way i was explained it was that you have to achieve your 8th degree to become a grand master, or if you train a student to master level you become a grand master.
Having read the thread all the way through, I must say that there have been some very good contributions, but I would like to make a few comments. First, as far as using rank as a marketing tool; though this does occur far too often, it really doesn't work. What a potential student or parent cares about is what you are going to do for them or their child. They don't care what rank an instructor has or what championships they've won. Now, if the student is happy with you and your teaching they MIGHT brag about your accomplishments, but it is always about them and never about you (the instructor) and that is how it should be. Second, some posters have made comments to the effect that if you are not Asian, then any high rank acheived should be suspect. While I agree that America has more than it's fair share of "belt factories" and an epedemic of "belt inflation", this is not only a western problem. Anybody else remember the outbreaks of "airline promotions" that occured when many Asian instructors moved over here? How many Koreans (in particular) got on the plane as red belts or 1st dans and got off the plane as 7th dans? Combine that with the rank ceilings that exist (or have in the past) in many organizations for many non-Asians and it should be noted that there is more than one side to this. I do not mean to defend the self-appointed ego maniacs out there nor am I trying to be disrespectful of international governing bodies whose headquarters are based in the east. However, I do feel that it should be mentioned that if someone from the west has the same level of skill, credentials, and expertise, they should be entitled to the same respect as their peers in their arts' homeland. As an example, in kodokan judo there are guys in the USA who were training for 20-30 years(+) and had beaten many of the Japanese who were ranked above them in international competition, but couldn't get ranked above 2nd dan. OTOH, there were Japanese instructors who hadn't been alive as long as some of these guys had been both training and teaching who were ranked at 6th dan (nor did they have nearly as impressive a list of accomplishments as competitors or teachers). I honestly don't know if the situation is as bad today as it was a few years back, but there really was a double standard. As far as the title of grandmaster goes, though you will never hear me refer to myself by that title, according to the WTF that designation begins at 6th dan. What's worst is that they consider 1st-5th dan as master ranks. In TKD, the use of master at 4th dan and grandmaster at 8th is basically a western product. I really couldn't blame a WTF 6th dan for using the title of grandmaster if his/her governing body defines them as such. This is coming straight from Korea, so it's not something to blame on western greed or ego.
I know this is an old discussion post, but still a good one. I know of the student Rangerwalker is referring to because we all came from the same dojang. I've even heard in the past this same student using the term "Great Grandmaster"...that to me is way out there. Rangerwalker was even one of my instructors at one time and I don't ever remember calling him anything but sir or Mr. "" in our classes. It has been many years (10-12 years) since we were in the same dojang, but we both have kept training and teaching and do not require our students to call us "Master" or anything like that. I only ask for respect in my classes with 'Sir", Instructor, or Mr. I had have even followed Rangerwalkers example and took all rank stripes off of my belt. I let my techniques speak for themselves as does Rangerwalker. Our students train with us because they see real techniques that work in a real world, not hype and marketing.
