I'm not sure whether there is a thread like this already made, but it didn't show up on my search. So as said above where do you think that Judo would be if it was not in the Olympics? Would there still be leg locks? Would ippon be as important? And what direction do you think it would have evolved in? I personally feel that Judo would have a much less restrictive rule set in which we would still be able to shoot, and go for takedowns along side the standard throws. I also think that submissions would be more common at high levels due to a lack of time limits and pins being valued so highly. That's just my two cents on the issue. What do you think?
it would be a much more well rounded martial art, but not an as well funded combat sport. Also the difference's between Judo and its sister arts, BJJ particularly, Sambo slightly less so, would be much more subtitle than they are now.
It may also have a lot more off shoots that cater to specific styles of grappelers, such as 10th Planet BJJ and things like that
Judo used to require 2 Ippons for a win. Guard slams were an allowed technique (dakiage). Leg and flying attacks might still be in play. The Olympics have not done judo any great favours. It was once one of the most popular arts in the world and I see dojo's closing down regularly in spite of it still being one of the arts that let you test yourself in a resistive yet safe environment. Maybe SanShou and BJJ should take a lesson from what has happened to judo and not be too quick to wish for Olympic inclusion... you know the old saying.. Be careful what you wish for, it might just happen. Just sayin' LFD
Judo does have styles within the art like that as it is just now though, South American Judo will be very distinct from what you would see the Japanese national team doing. Russia (and other former soviet union countries) famously have a very distinct style of Judo for instance.
I think that the martial arts world is all the richer for having both Judo and BJJ. The rules differences in both systems have caused them to evolve and develop in different ways, and both produce fighters who excel, albeit at slightly different aspects of grappling. I don't necessarily think that being an Olympic sport is bad for Judo. While I agree that some of the more restrictive rules cause people to "play" a certain way—as a BJJer, I feel irked every time the ref stands up a perfectly good ground fight—becoming specialized in a certain type of (very effective) throwing/grappling isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Yeah you see a lot of this we need to try and get BJJ in the Olympics attitude going around just now, very short sighted. Inclusion in the Olympics is in my book the worst thing that ever happened to Judo as a martial art (although maybe not as a sport) hard to see how BJJ wouldn't follow a similar fate. But it will never happen, the Olympics is all about being spectator friendly its why Judo has been butchered like it has, and top level BJJ is allot of the time pretty boring to watch if you don't understand it.
I think judo would be less poPular without he Olympics and may have taken bjjs place in early western MMA matches like UFC
isn't that a bit of an oxymoron it would be less popular than it is now even though it would have taken BJJ's place as the art that showed the world grappling is the business. BJJ's place of prominence in early MMA was because BJJ people had a direct hand in setting up the UFC, nothing really to do with BJJ as martial art so I don't think that would have been different. Sambo for instance is a more rounded form of grappling than BJJ generally and that has existed for the last 60 years without any Olympic influence, no UFC type promotion ever came out of that not even with Sambo having a built in form of MMA already.
I used to train with some Russians before I moved and many of them complained about the lack of attacks to the leg thats around these days. Apparently they used to grab the pant leg and then go for throws. Also has some different grips: [ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqoIwe4QB4&list=PLD1027291630DF5AC&index=1&feature=plpp_video"]Russian Judo Part 1 - YouTube[/ame] I wish I could find a place that trains like that.
yep lots of ankle picks and leg grabs from upright grips, also very unique gripping positions for throws and trips like the 2 on 1 grip/Russian tie, or over the shoulder grips. Im a big fan of the Russian Judo/Sambo style when it comes to clinching with a gi on. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJuxe5BMcfw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJuxe5BMcfw[/ame]
history repeats itself? It's not exactly the same but just in case you hadn't heard of this before Judo was involved in something very similar at the turn of the century. There was a competition to decide who would teach the police force martial arts and judo took on all comers. I believe they won all but one match which they tied. So judo, before the advent of the sports aspect was willing to take on challengers on an open mat and did well. Over time with the desire to become an Olympic sport lots of things were dropped/modified. Of course some stuff might have been lost because of the rate of injuries even if there was no desire to join the Olympics. I have the feeling that some of the stuff that made judo what is was would not have been affected as much if there wasn't a desire to join the Olympics. Personally I think that BJJ would have faced a tougher challenge from the Judo of the old days (hey, they had already thought of and included guard slams in competition :' ). In some ways people should thank BJJ for preserving some of the aspects of Judo that have been let slip a bit (BJJ did originate from a Judo player). Too bad we will never know what might have been.... LFD
It seems to me that the large variation of grips would make the art much more complex, and as such increase the depth and the potential for cross training some more. (Not that judo isn't already epic for cross training)
Tout. What compromises of the early Japanese MMA scene? Judo. It would likely still be in high schools without olympic influence and rise to prominence that way.
I have never noted Judo being any more prominent in early Japanese MMA than it was in western. If you were looking for the Japanese equivalent of what BJJ was to early american MMA I would have said Wrestling was the closest candidate not Judo.
Despite making it one of the most widely participated individual sports in the world, with funding that massively outstrips any other martial art except maybe tkd? The view that judo is on the decline is extremely americo-centric, or at least limited to the English speaking world. Judo is thriving in most other parts of world e.g. the French Judo Federation boasts over 600,000 members. BJJ is obviously growing at a phenomenal rate, partly due to it's effectiveness and partly due to it's free advertising through the UFC, but there aren't nearly enough competitors worldwide, or the breadth of countries involved to even be considered for Olympic inclusion, so I wouldn't worry too much. Regarding restrictions, I'd love to return to an older form of judo with longer groundwork, less restrictions on gripping and leg attacks, however the benefits of modern judo still outweigh these caveats; being able to training high impact throws and takedowns with resistance and still be able to walk afterwards, the breadth of training partners, the ability to go to 3/4 competitions a year within 2 hours drive. I still enjoy cross training in BJJ, however none of the schools I've gone to have trained standing with any regularity and sambo is still too rare around these parts, although hopefully our club will start training sambo in addition to judo.
agree with pretty much all of this, it just depends on whether you'd like the sport to be as widespread as possible or whether you would like the rules to be as unrestricted as possible that effects how you view the Olympic influence on Judo. For me its the latter. The point about the Judo in decline being an english speaking world point of view is also a good one, Judo is still huge in South America, Russia and of course Japan. is this in the works ?
Korea and Europe too. And I agree with you mate, I'd love less restrictions, my point was that the good still outweigh the not so good. Yeah, two of our coaches won the Scottish Sombo Championships last year just using their judo so we've decided to branch out and actually learn some leg locks :L
cool, where's your club located ? there are sambo guys in glasgow and up north (either dundee or aberdeen) they could maybe learn from
