What happens if your in a fight and the Law?

What if some guy out on the town, has you by the shirt, and pulls back to throw a big haymaker, if you hit them first and drop them. What's the result there?

 

Looks like you had no chance to escape so you are in the clear, but i have been in anincident and was found by a court to be not guilty, but i was 3 days in a police cell before I got to court. just because you beat the rap doesn't always mean you beat the ride.

 

Would you like to share your experience, so that others can be under no illusions of what the aftermath of an incident is like?

 

Only 3 days? Damn, in the states you prolly would have sat for 3 months!

 

I have changed some dialogue to more acceptable terms to comply with MAP tos.

That was only till the preliminary arraignment hearing, where they ask if you are who you say you are, the police confirm they have checked your ID and address and the Procurator Fiscal tells the court what you are to be charged with.

I was minding the door of a branch of a well-known burger chain. Friday night on a bank holiday weekend.

Three drunks came to my door and were refused admission. My colleague on the other door (was a muppet) let them in. A teenage girl serving at the counter was treated to their witty repartee about her breast size, she swapped places with another server who was an Asian man. He received the reaction "we don't want the Paki we want the bird with the impressive bosom".

I was called over and escorted them from the premises. they actually went without to much bother.

They then stood on the pavement working up some courage and decided to challenge me. They approached the door and I shut it in their faces. One of them started to kick the door so I told the manager to call the police. It was a glass door and it was starting to look like to would not stand up to the prolonged attack so I opened the door again and stepped in front of it onto the entryway.

The attacker jumped back and his mates moved up to near him but about 3 ft each away from him, one behind and one to his right/my left.

I told them the police had been called and they weren't getting in so they had better go now.

Door kicker then said "you're dead you fat illegitimate person" and came towards me with His hand inside his jacket as if he was accessing a weapon I had no easy means of escape, the door was closed behind me so I had to defend myself. I punched my assailant on the jaw and he went down straight away. His accomplice on my right stepped up and tried to grab me, I let him - pulling him slightly off balance at the same time and threw him onto his shoulder. His other mate jumped back and the police ran up and gathered us all up. I had been seen throwing assailant number 2 and admitted punching door kicker (I would admit nothing under the same circumstances now wait for your brief).

A young policeman told me I was going to be charged with breach of the peace for "grappling in the streets of Glasgow" (said cop looked like the type who sat daydreaming at the back of class and scratching his bits) and I was asked to sit in a police minibus. An older police sergeant came in to talk to me and gave me the pals act, offering me a cigarette, telling me I had done well taking on three guys, not many guys have that sort of bottle without a weapon nowadays etc. I just said I had no choice I was concerned for the safety of the public in the restaurant and had no way out of it. (he was on his own - anything I did say was going to be uncorroborated anyway so no use in court - in Scotland police evidence of verbal admissions must be corroborated by a witness to be usable).

I was then taken to the police HQ and searched again, I was interviewed but refused to speak without a lawyer present and the duty solicitor was called for me but was unavailable at that time, put in a cell and asked if I wanted anyone contacted on my behalf. I asked for my younger brother who was a serving officer in the same force to be called (you don't get to make your own phone call in Scotland). He was out on duty but I got a call in from him later on his break. (he told me the name of the Police Federation Lawyer to use as my Lawyer in this case so out went the duty solicitor). I then spent three days in solitary doing press ups, sit ups, burpeees etc. and chi gung exercises to stop me from going mad, the food was atrocious and in tin trays pushed under your door, you had to ask for a turnkey to flush your toilet for you after it had been used, I got out for 15 mins a day to wash at a cold tap with cheap soap and dry myself with paper towels with no privacy at all.

I had no change of clothes until the Monday when my mother was allowed to hand in a change for me, I was not allowed my tie but I got a clean shirt, trousers, underpants, socks and a tweed sports jacket (try and look like a good middle class boy - if you look like a "gangsta" the authorities will assume that is what you are). On the Tuesday morning at 6:30 in the morning I was allowed out to get washed and given a disposable razor to shave with (cold water, cheap soap what fun) then moved to another cell with 2 neds (I had a little run in with them as they wanted tobacco from me and I don't smoke and I don't give to beggars anyway). At 8am we were shackled in pairs and put on a prison services bus to be moved to the holding cells under the Sheriff court.

After an interview with the PF and being put in another cell, I was put in a larger holding cell next to the courtroom. I got to meet my chav friends from earlier that morning who studiously ignored me. Word had also got round that I was capable of looking after myself and some older guys who were waiting and some bikers got into a conversation with me. I then went in at about 1:45pm to the hearing described above. I was released on bail under my own cognisance and finally stepped out of court at 3:10pm on Tuesday, I had been arrested on the Friday night.

I received a letter for the Procurator Fiscal about 2 month later saying all charges had been dropped and no further action would be taken against me. No apology nothing.

So that's it no drama, no judged by 15, but three days wearing the same clothes in a dirty old cell that was roasting during the day and chilly at night eating rubbish and unable to get clean, not my idea of fun.

Nowadays they have special courts sitting on a bank holiday weekend and I would have got out probably on the Saturday but I still do not fancy it in the slightest.

Do any of you?

 

Now that is a story which needs to be stickied for all the MAP vigilante-wanna-bes.

At this point, why don't we just sticky this entire thread?

 

I agree. Where is the sticky for this thread? Its a gold mine.

 

I emailed Saz and KC. We'll see what they say about making this thing a sticky in General Discussion or (preferably) Self-Defense.

 

I forgot to mention Door kicker had an empty bud beer bottle in his pocket inside his jacket, if I hadn't hit him I would maybe not be as good looking as I am today.

 

I don't know much about US law but this isn't the case in the UK.

If your attacker is twice your size you could argue its not elevating the situation?

 

That is correct. I think sometimes people get confused because they assume that the law is the same in both. But in fact there are different legal systems in England and Scotland - never mind the USA!

GangrelChilde quoted Pennsylvania law. I'm curious to know whether the law varies much on this issue from one US state to another?

 

It is actualy more or less the same you may only use force if you have no reasonable means of escape.

 

http://www.findlaw.com/11stategov/
This site is a good source for laws covering all states, and is the source for the information found here
http://jenningscc.com/TaeKwonDo/SelfDefenseLaw.htm

Stickied

 

It often seems to go this way!?

The quick and easy option of holding you for a period of time as a slap on the hand for being involved in a brawl. Ok they drop charges but it doesn't your days back.

 

Thanks KC

Now, on a slightly different tack, I think something that people should bear in mind is that when it comes down to practicalities there is a lot more involved than just the 'letter of the law.' How you deal with the police and how they deal with you is of crucial importance, and could mean the difference between getting a caution or getting charged with assault - or worse.

I think people often discuss these issues in threads like this as though everything is black and white, with identikit legal conclusions to every action, but in my (limited) experience, justice is a bit of a lottery.

 

Agreed, the police have to judge the situation when they turn up on scene. If one person is a raving lunatic and the other calm, its going to be a big plus in favour of the calm person. Although this is probably far more true with drunken fights than any real criminal activity!

My worst mistake was after some guy had walked into a pub and attacked a female bouncer, really going at her with a vicious attack. So I dragged him outside, put him in a head lock and as there were few people around, put a few jabs into the ribs.... Only to be tapped on the shoulder by a policeman After a couple of statements and so on, surprise surprise not charges were brought...

Annoying that I was in the right morally but had to prove otherwise due to how it appeared. And he got off completely!!!

 

One thing we all need to keep in mind here.

This is a two-step process. Step One is identifying the laws. Step Two is applying them. Obviously step two is the harder part, lol.

Anyway, I think we're on the right track here. Let's self-police this one guys, it's a sticky now. But keep the questions and hypotheticals coming, that's how it works!

 

Something I was wondering, if you were to fight with someone. What difference would it make to fight on either; your property, theres, or neutral ground?

 

In the US there are dramatically different results depending on where the fight takes place. Obviously I'm generalizing US law here, I'll give specifics where applicable.

Neutral ground: You have a duty to retreat, and the stuff I listed earlier applies.

Their property: Depends on the "why". Were you at a party and just got into it with the homeowner? I'd argue that the self-defense laws apply as normal. If you went there looking for a fight, you'll be hard-pressed to claim self-defense.

Your property: This is probably where the most variation comes in. In most states, you will find that you do not have a duty to retreat from your own home. The real question becomes the use of force and what level you can use. In Texas and Florida, IIRC, there isn't much of a restriction on deadly force when someone breaks into your home. Sadly, this is where the subjectivity comes into play. As I noted earlier, self-defense laws in the US tend to be pretty subjective in that they rely on the impressions of the person being attacked. Exception: Subsection (2)(ii)(A) of Section 505 makes it very clear, at least in PA, that you do have a duty to retreat if you were the homeowner and initial aggressor. Subsection (2)(i) also makes it clear that you have to be very careful in your use of deadly force; if you attack someone with the intent to cause death or bodily injury and try to use deadly force, you're not engaging in self-defense.

Someone else asked earlier about the opponent who comes up to you, gets in your face, and winds up a sloppy haymaker punch. That is clearly a situation where the intent of the aggressor is clear, and I would say that based on the clarity of his intent, you would be justified in using a level of force to protect yourself, with the caveats given earlier about provocation.