What does everone think of CNG's SKK...

Josh, please note that my post mentioned nothing about his style, nor a desire for you to leave. It was a response to your opinion that the lies were a small matter, and that Prof Cerio wouldn't have cared about his time in study. I just wanted to point out that even cng knew different.

I urge you to stay where you are happy. But, since you brought it into the conversation, I will also urge you to either look closely at what value a self-taught master may offer in self-preservation training, or define specifically what you are training for. If it is for comeraderie and exercise, then you are definitely fine. If it is for martial ability, consider carefully whose hands you are leaving your safety in.

Take care and be well.

 

Joe,
I did not see any kata performed in (Chapter 14) by Geary. I belive it is Steiner performing the kata (pinnan 2). Where is the video of Geary (other than the ceremony)?
This pinan 2 looks exactly like the form Ha-Dan in TKD (a yellow belt form ). Can anyone shed any light on the pinan?

It looks as though his only formal training (other than by video) was with USSD - which might explain a lot because I have heard nothing but bad things about this organization.

Also, educate me on this kempo lineage. Can someone clear up the the mess in his biography relating to Gascon and Pesare. Did they (Gascon and Pesare) have a falling out? Where does Cerio play into all of this?

My interest is peaked on the other side of the Kempo story - since I come from the Ed Parker side.

-Kenpoist

 

Yes, very interesting with the back and forth e-mails between Pesare and Gascon, as well as the negativity towards Shuras by Pesare. Regardless of the issues between Geary and the Karazenpo group, there seems to be issues between Karazenpo and Pesare per the e-mails shown in Chapter 14 of Geary's autobio

 

If you have questions regarding GM. Pesare and GM. Gascon I would suggest you ask these men directly.
Their contact info is on their sites.

There is a lot of info on the Kempo/Kenpo faq.
Also, do not forget Prof. John Bishop's site on Kajukenbo. It is an excellent site with a wealth of info... Not to mention the only site I know that has videos of Prof. Chow!
Kajukenbo is the foundation Art of KGS.
Hope this helps!

 

Both Pinion 1 and pinon two were performed on the video that I saw in chapter 14. In SKK pinion one is generally given out at yellow or orange belt, and pinion two is generally given out a purple belt. These are some of the "karate" forms that are in the SKK system. I'm not surprised that you've seen TKD people do them too, as many of their forms were taken from karate.

Maybe I just went in with really low expectations, but the guy's performance of the forms wasn't all that bad. One interesting thing to note is the style in which he performed them. While they are karate forms, and are traditionally taught with very hard blocks and strikes, normally as one progresses through the SKK ranks, they adjust the style of their forms to be more flowy (is that even a word?). By 1st dan, one would expect the form to look a lot more like a kempo form than a karate form. Now, it could be that he was demonstrating it in a karate style, but my guess would be that as his instructor never got far enough in the SKK system (officially at least) to make this transition himself, then he hasn't been able to teach that transition to his students.

 

This lends support to my earlier assesment... The transition phase from purple belt to shodan is missing. Again, it goes back to lack of quality Instruction in the foundation Art.
It really does boil down to differnt standards in execution. :bang:

 

Fairness

Sijo Gascon has his complete bio on his web site. C.Geary has his bio on his site as well. Most who are making comments about these two men have not listed their own schools web site or their bio. To me it is very difficult to form an opinion about this issue without knowing who is making these opinions and the real reason why they are doing so. During most debates all who are involved must stand up and tell everyone who they are and other background information. This is done in order to be credible. Be credible, list your real name and your schools web site.

 

Okay, I respect your request...
http://www.academy-martialarts.com/joe.htm
Now, how about you post your info so I can determine who is judging or debating me.

 

Joe, I thought your earlier analysis was spot on. However, I think you were a little harsh in saying that the form looked purple belt level. Personally, I would've put it higher than that, if only for the decent power that was demonstrated, but it certainly wasn't shodan, let alone godan level. Maybe it's just that I think that the "transition" that we're talking should start a little later than you do. Either way though, I don't think the difference between what we're saying is a big deal.

Of course I was only writing about the forms demonstration. The combination 3 video was definately orange belt level. It showed a fundamental lack of understanding of what the technique was trying to accomplish, and how to manipulate the balance of your attacker.


PS If anyone wants to find my bio they can follow the link in my signature.

 

I agree there is no real differnce in when the transition happens, as long as it happens before shodan.
The 3 combination was not the best I have seen. I'll leave it at that.
Nice Dojo by the way!

 

TSD, not TKD. I believe the common factor is Shotokan, in TSD's history and didn't Nick Cerio add these (from a Shotokan source?) to his system as taught to Fred Villari?

We teach the early pinan hard like that, later ones become much more flowing. I've been comparing our pinan 4 with TSD Pyung Ahn Sa Dan. The pinan 1 is identical but by pinan 4 ours has changed to add cat stances and circular blocks in place of forward steps and strikes... etc... So as we progress in rank the hard forms get more powerful, the soft forms get more flowing. Not hard ones getting softer.

We teach 1 to the yellow belts, required for orange, 2 to orange belts, required for purple, as is kata 1.

On a realted-but-just-barely topic, can anyone tell me where Bruce Juchnik would have learned these forms? I got a video of him teaching them and was just curious who taught him. I'm assuming it was not Mitose while in jail, nor the Tracys

 

I don't have a bio on line yet. There would not be too much to it regarding martial arts. I studied Aikido 7 or 8 years ago. I have studied kempo for about 6 months.

 

New message on http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/ regarding Geary.

 

I had 1 Pinan pretty much as we have it now, taught to me in South Korea by a TKD instructor in 1983. Most hard forms have very similar versions if not identical. It is the universal double rice line, hard style, beginner form.

I don't think you and I are on the same page when it comes to hard and soft... How can you teach a Pinan(1-5) soft? I have never been able to throw a "soft" punch. What 4 Pinan do you have? How can you throw soft elbows?

JoeV.

 

By soft I mean without hard intercepting blocks, using parrying blocks instead. Drawing backwards instead of stepping forwards. Manipulative attacks as oposed to destructive. That kind of thing.

 

Do you have 18 combination? Is that a "soft combination"? It has most of the elements you describe as being soft.

JoeV.

 

Hello Pacificshore, I am here only to answer your question in regards to myself And SGM. S. George Pesare being on the outs. I will not comment on anything that has to do with Mr. Geary and the KGS BBS.

Mr. Pesare and myself had a personal disagreement and as a matter of fact, back in 2004 he told me if anything is said, that is what it was, a personal disagreement. However, at the time, 'certain' people began blowing on the fire and things escalated between us. **** happens, but look at that e-mail on Geary's site, it was a long time since.

Regardless, my wife Kathy and SGM. Pesare have an excellent relationship and Kathy and our students attend his tournaments every year and they enjoy it very much. SGM. Pesare has promoted Kathy to 8th degree black belt of which she truly deserves with over 29 years of continuous and dedicated training and service to the art of Kempo/Kenpo.
Kathy will soon be honored by SGM. Pesare at a visit to our school where he will conduct a a formal promotional ceremony for Kathy.

Despite any past differences I have had with Mr. Pesare, I have never wavered in giving him all the 'kudos' that he deserves for everything he has given to our Kenpo/Kempo. He is the undisputed founder of New England Kempo. I had studied with him in the 70's at his Branch Ave Institute when I first met him and in the early 2000's until our differences and I will always say and have said right up to now: No Pesare-No Cerio-No Villari and No New England Kenpo/Kempo, at least as we know it today! We'd all probably be doing Tae Kwon Do right now (nothing against TKD, lol). Let me also state that I left in 1978 only because I was operating a school under someone else who found out I was training there and felt it was a conflict of interest. No big thing either, he was very nice about asking me to discontinue my studies there and Mr. Pesare was very understanding when I explained what happened.

Paciificshore, your other question concerning Mr. Pesare and Mr. Gascon will have to be asked to them. It is not my place to comment although both men have always acknowledged each other their proper place in the Kenpo/Kempo world. SGM. Pesare spoke highly of GGM. Gascon at Professor Cerio's Memorial Legacy last year and Mr. Gascon fully acknowledged Mr. Pesare in his statement I read in accepting Mr. Gascon's plaque for him. I also recall Mr. Pesare stating that some here know that he and 'Victor' (Mr. Gascon) have a disagreement right now but he emphasized that is between Victor and I and no one else.

Bottom line is "LEGIT" martial artisits will always have their differences, arguments and blowouts from time to time, instructors and students, BUT at least they are "LEGIT" and being "LEGIT", dedicated and hardworking ma's there is always a chance of reconciliation.

This is all I can comment on and the only reason I knew there was discussion going on about this is because I was e-mailed. I haven't even checked this thread unitil now. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras

 

Professor Joe,

Thanks for your input to my inquiry. Always good to get both sides of any story.

 

You're very welcome, sir.

 

We do have a combo #18 but I think it must be numbred differently than yours because ours does not feature any of that Our #18 is response to a high left strike followed by a low right.