What do you study and why?

You know what they say about "if you want something done right..." Here is the original Chinese Jekyll is quoting:

须知：一动无有不动，一静无有不静。视动犹静，视静犹动。内固精神，外示安逸。须要从人，不要由己。从人则活，由己则滞。尚气者无力，养气者纯刚。

and here is my own translation (since all the ones I've read online have been bad.):

You must keep in mind: once there is movement, there can be no stopping, once there is calm there can be no agitation. See movement as stillness and stillness as movement. Harden the spirit internally but remain calm and relaxed on the surface. You must follow the opponent and not begin moving yourself. Following is flexible and lively, but initiating movement oneself is stagnant. Revering the qi leaves one powerless, but by cultivating the qi one can become as hard as steel.


As you can see, the passage is composed of sets of opposites. "Following the opponent is lively, but moving on your own is stagnant, etc." Jekyll's quote is only the first half of a pair of opposites. The author is saying that blindly worshipping the idea of qi will not give you any power, but that, in contrast, cultivating the qi gradually will give you limitless power. “纯钢“ (pure hardness) is the opposite of “无力“ (powerless), just as "活" (lively) is the opposite of "滞" (stagnant). Therefore, Jekyll's quote is taken completely out of context.

 

Good work .
I don't suppose, 'Stop the qi for ultimate hardness' or 'where there is no qi then pure hardness' would work as alternate readings? That's what I've got in my translation. I ask because on the whole you do agree with the rest of her translation.

 

The words for "pure" and "hardness" are both words with traditionally good/powerful connotations. "Wuli," on the other hand, is definitely negative. The English translations had had me confused in that they don't make it clear that the two are intended to be opposites, with the "hardness" meaning something like "indomitable strength." (Taiji people generally think of "hardness" as a bad thing).

Furthermore, although "shang" (esteem/revere) usually has a good meaning, it also sounds very lofty, as opposed to "yang" (cultivate), which sounds humble. Therefore, the word "esteem" in this case means "put on a pedestal/revere like a religious object." Master Wu is saying that those who revere qi as something that will magically give them instant power will be weak, while those who humbly cultivate it with hard work will be strong.

I don't know where they could have gotten "where there is no qi" from. There's nothing like that in there. The characters go like this "shang qi zhe wu li, yang qi zhe chun gang," literally meaning "esteem qi person no power, cultivate qi person pure hardness." There's no type of negation in there other than the "wu" before "li." As to how I know that hardness is a good thing in this case, the combination of the string of opposites preceeding it along with the traditionally good connotations of "chun" and "gang," I think make it clear that the author is setting up a contrast between blindly worshipping the idea of qi and cultivating it through long, hard work.

 

Self-mastery

It's the only road to truth and true freedom... and release from the delusions of "reality" Can't be taught in books or in schools. Only self-mastery (discipline) holds the answers.

 

Hurrah for Shadowlin :Angel:

 

Taiji Butterfly, thank you for your honesty. However, in view of what you've just said I think it might be best to drop this discussion on the nature of reality. I am not Mr. Tactful in the flesh, and significantly worse over the internet.
I am quite in awe about how far I have managed to force my foot down my throat in the course of this conversation, and I have no doubt that I will continue to do so if we continue this discussion.
I think you have explained your stance clearly and given that neither of us are likely to convince the other to change their mind, this seems like as good a place to stop as any.
I'd also like to say that, the way you've managed to make your life your own despite such obstacles is an example to us all.

 

Don't feel too bad about the foot-in-mouth. Happens to me all the time.

 

Hey it's cool No foot in the mouth at all from where I'm lookin - don't worry about it
Glad we can reach an understanding - differing views = differing realities imo lol

Thank you
:Angel:

 

i like your approach

analogy and relationship determine meaning in chinese....i think your interpretation is fairly accurate in that it adheres to eastern logic. with further study i'd be interested to find if "chun gang" had any deeper significant meaning---why did the author choose those words as a synonym for "li"/power? how does "chun gang" enrich our understanding of "li", especially when it is something cultivated instead of revered?

here is a great chinese quote:
????.???.?????.??.???.?????.????.?????.???.??????.?????

lol!!! just kidding, just a bunch of question marks....!

 

Ahem..allow me to be a little mischeivous :Angel:


Foolishly wise then is he, who upon discovering the wall has neither beginning nor end; finds no other course but to cast his spell of invisability upon it.. PA BA!!

On doing so he finds the dastardly dichotomy was but only illusory in the first instance after all..fooled into being a fool he was! Yes ! the wall of reason is there they all insisted..right there! pointed they did.

DOH!

Foolish then it would seem, for those who would pity the wisened fool

For there he goes, blessed and brave to walk straight through!
-------------------------------------------
Wise is twin to the fool..



peace to all players

 

fun for the fool in us all

yes, mmmmmm, fooled yourself you have! walking are you, straight through illusions, when flying right over them could you be! :Angel:

do or do not, there is not try.

lol! like yoda, all great sages/masters cultivate a natural balance of wisdom and foolishness, eh?

 

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
No wall can stand in my path.

 

now that is a great attitude!

but careful you don't want to bust your dan tien!

 

There's two versons of this line in the text it seems. The one you have and another that reads something along the lines of "When one has qi, then one has no strength. If one has no qi, pure hardness."
I'd been blurring them together when I was going by memory alone.
I'm going to go with the text you've been reading. But I think it referes to conditioning/cultivating the breath to harden the body by the practice of the thirteen postures.
By the 13 postures, I also think he referes to are the 12 yin+1 yang and the 12 yang+1 yin neigung and not the 8 powers and 5 directions.
This is consistant with the way both the exposition of insights into the 13 postures and the 13 postures song seem by large unconcerned with thoughts of an opponent. And also with the way the 13 postures song says you must enter the door by seeking oral instruction.