What defines a Martial artist? (Taekwondo)

Self defense and martial arts in general is not a place for faith. It is a place for rehearsing and practicing skills and situations. All the boxing skills in the world are no good if your brain can't process the build up to non-consensual violence. You can loose the fight before your brain has realized that it has started.

 

True that!

 

Wrong choice of word perhaps as I agree.

I also agree that the build up to nonconsensual violence is a key stage in self defence. However I'd argue that no consistent training replicates that as all training is by definition consensual. The reaction to the afformentioned stage is in a large part down to your comfort with physical confrontation which boxing etc deals with just as adequately. If you think competitive (or even noncompetetive if training for a while) boxers are out there crumbling in the prefight Id have to disagree. They also have the composure to be effective under extreme physical and emotional duress.

 

Recently I got a new student. He came with a background in kickboxing. Typical boxer, not afraid of getting hit, loves to hit the other guy, likes to be in the ring. Turns out he hadn't done any scenario training, so we did some. In the scenario training he fell apart. Afterwards he said he would much rather be boxing with a six foot polish builder than do scenario training because his brain could not handle the load of processing the situation.

Consensual violence and non consensual violence require different decisions and different decision making processes. Once he had realized and felt the difference it did not take him long to pick up the skills to make decisions and act effectively in scenarios.

 

While I take your point some of that could be just the unfamiliarity if the training paradigm and the cognitive dissonance between knowing it's a drill/game but having to act like its real. I experienced something similar myself in krav Maga. But I've never had an issue when its been real.

How exactly did he fall apart and what rules and equipment were you conducting your scenario/game under?

Just to be clear. I do advocate SD specific training and don't view Combat sports as the be all and end all of that preparation. I just think they are also a very good vehicle for developing fighting ability and have far more crossover than people give them credit for.

 

That could be more dangerous than having no training at all in some situations. Not just in terms of injury risk, but ending up on the wrong side of the law as well.

On TKD and SD: outside of MAP, pretty much every TKD'er or Karateka I've talked to has considered themselves to be a lethal weapon, reigned-in only by their uncommon self-discipline and mental focus. I accept that's a small sample, but Knee Rider and matutor appear to have had a similar experience.

Self-defence is even in the TAGB oath:

"As a student of Tae Kwon-Do, I do solemnly pledge to abide by the rules and regulations of the Tae Kwon-Do Association, to strive always to be modest, courteous and respectful to all members, in particular my seniors, to put the art into use only for self defence or defence of the weak and never to abuse my knowledge of the art."

Even oaths that don't explicitly use the term "self-defence" have the real-world awesomeness of their fighting ability clearly inferred:

"I shall observe the tenets of Taekwon-Do.

All students must swear to carefully observe, acknowledge and live by each one of the taekwon-do tenets. Above is a brief and basic explanation of each

I shall respect the instructor and seniors.

A student vows to respect their instructors and those senior to them (both in age and rank). An instructor must also act respectfully to all students and persons in order to be respected and therefore not misusing Taekwon-Do.

I shall never misuse Taekwon-Do.

One will never misuse Taekwon-Do to harm other, for their own personal gain or for any other manner that is unjust (this one is particularly important in any martial art, not just Taekwon-Do, as a trained martial artist could easily kill a person in unarmed close combat)

I shall be a champion of freedom and justice.

The 4th line, “I shall be a champion of freedom and justice” can apply to many areas of life and although many may think one would have to do something amazing to achieve this, this part of the oath can be respected by even the littlest things in ones daily activity. If one becomes more open-minded to understanding others ideologies or the way others go about their lives instead of being quick to judge, then maybe the world would be a more understanding and accepting place. Thus allowing people to have the freedom they deserve. By accepting this belief one is bringing justice to this world and therefore being a champion of justice. As we often see, conflicts can occur over common misconceptions of information. One must understand the full story and have all the facts before he can truly make a proper judgement

I shall build a more peaceful world.

The final line of the oath is “I shall build a more peaceful world”. One can also easily obtain this goal by going about their daily lives in a more peaceful manner. If everyone did this, the world would obviously become a more peaceful place. As we often see, conflicts can occur over common misconceptions of information. One must understand the full story and have all the facts before he can truly make a proper judgement.However, this does not mean a student cannot defend themselves against aggression directed towards themselves as that would defeat some of the purpose of Taekwondo, an art of unarmed self-defence. That does not mean though however a student can provoke aggression towards another individual, as that would breaking the oath. As we often see, conflicts can occur over common misconceptions of information. One must understand the full story and have all the facts before he can truly make a proper judgement."

- http://www.martialartslessons.co.uk/taekwon-do-tenets/

 

yes. If you are thinking holistically about self defence including aftermath then definately. Also nobody is invincible and of course false confidence is a dangerous thing, just as an overly agressive temperament can be when it clouds judgement.

 

In complete agreement.

I am not even sure its a question of crossover. A fight is a fight. A punch is a punch. Sport fighting skills are the same as street fighting skills. Its just that sport fighting misses out some of the additional factors involved in uncontrolled non consensual violent encounters.

The scenarios we practiced were simple role plays with verbal escalation used to unsettle the victim and then get the drop on them. The student had no trouble dealing with blitz attacks with no verbal elements as all the fighting good habits and reflex were there. The problem was not fighting skill based it was processing skill based.

I think that in essence we are in agreement - its just we have slightly different experiences of who "people" are and how much credit they give to sport fighting arts in self defense situations. This colors the viewpoint and tone of our respective posts.

 

In fairness, I've probably met loads of people who've done TKD who are perfectly reasonable in their approach to it, so didn't think their rank or deadliness was worth mentioning in casual conversation. Squeaky wheels and all that...

 

The thing is, I have yet to see a TKD school, in my area, that doesn't sell them selvs on Self defense, and they all do limited rules sparring. So apparently, it must be a country specific thing, as of the 4 TKD schools in my area, Each and EVERY one of them sell them selves on self defense first, then the fact they are "traditional".

So, how can the their be agreement between student and instructor, about what exactly is the aims of that instructors teaching, if they claim to be doing one thing, but actually doing another? If it was just one school, I would agree with you Mitch. However its every single one..

 

Glad you asked:

Back then, all TKD was taught by Koreans (In the two states I had resided). I had two TKD instructors (not at the same time). One instructor, had a extensive background in Yudo and Hapkido. The other in Tang Soo Do.

Both were given support (financially) from the Korean Government to spread TKD abroad. Each studied TKD in Korea years before departing

Their syllabus consisted of TKD and their primary base arts practiced on separate instruction. Likewise to TKD forms and step sparring, they had a rigid sparring session. This was sparring which takedowns and throws were allowed. Although, mostly controlled, some bruising and sanguinary happened in those sessions. Injuries were attended to by the instructor. Those sessions were reserved for students over 18-19. No one back then was law-suit "happy"

Towards my parting, each seem to teach less of TKD and more of their primary base arts, and one eventually started a new or renamed art all together. I can only conclude this was common as TKD abroad in the US was getting diluted by many other generations (of non-Koreans) or they wanted to pay homage to their primary base arts.

It wasn't long that other Korean instructors started their schools on their primary base arts alone. The most popular after TKD were Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, and Kuk Sol Won (areas near my bi-state residency)

Back then, there was a small "kid class", but the mainstream of students were late teens and adults. And there were no "kid black belters"

 

^ This! This! Oh my god so much this!

 

While I agree that people need to get perspective on the variety of personal training outcomes, what motivates people to train and that we should all accept that optimal combat functionality isnt what everyone strives for; I stiil think in the case of TKD 'will this work in MMA?' - or maybe more appropriatley K1 - and to what extent, as well as to what extent does that matter to me and how does it reflect upon my training, is a pretty good question that people who train TKD or any striking art as a martial art rather than just a stand alone sport should be able to ask and answer.

 

So, what you are saying, I gather, that if you are competing in MMA, Judo, TKD, etc., then TRAIN for such. People should not train in something and EXPECT it to do something else