What are the most important techniques in karate according to the kata?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Moosey, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member


    Kata is training wheels. You must become so proficient with a kata that you can do it on the side of a mountain blindfolded. It must become a part of you and you must reach the point where you don't think about it. You then introduce bunkai and then free-sparring like bunkai, then you take these techniques and break them away from kata and use them in free sparring. There is a world of difference between performing a kata on the deck and actually deploying the techniques in a fight.
     
  2. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

    I would argue that it should be the other way around, and that the teaching of application should precede or be synchronous with learning a kata.

    Training wheels on a bike have meaning because of the context the ground provides. Similarly, kata has meaning in light of the context that applications provide.

    Just like learning to ride a bike, the terrain (application context can change), but learning only kata movements and then expecting an ability in applying the kata to spring from that is like only riding an exercise bike and expecting to be able to jump on a ten-speed and race off down the road.

    There is a world of difference between performing the movements well and knowing the kata.
     
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I also believe that the best way to learn a Kata inside out, and to get a deeper understanding of it in a shorter amount of time, is to learn the bunkai first and drill this regularly with a partner, the solo Kata second.

    Of linked relevance to this topic is a short article I wrote recently on solo Kata training for self defence:

    http://www.practicalkarate.co.uk/JTPKT.html

    and one I wrote on bunkai and oyo many moons ago:

    http://www.practicalkarate.co.uk/TradBunkai.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I learned kihon kata first, but most everything after that I learned bunkai first then after that was taught the kata that contained the bunkai.

    That was the way things were learned when I was in karate. Self-defense came first so bunkai came before kata beyond kihon kata.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Too many, IMHO, are focused on showing proficiency in kata, but it should be the kata that is a reflection of the proficiency and experience in fighting.

    Those in the know can spot things in someone's performance of kata that are bad habits or show lack of experience in real situations/fights.

    The secret is in the supplemental training. It wasn't long into training heavy contact and fighting full contact that I realized the importance of good alignment and the right technique for attacking with speed and power but mostly so not to injure myself.

    If my alignment and technique is off in kata, I'm probably making those same mistakes in real fights. Kata is a reflection of what I do in real situations. Not the specific techniques of real combat but the generic movements that represent these techniques.

    IME.
     
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

  7. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I think using a soft illustrative bunkai as a method to illustrate techniques in a kata are a great way to teach the kata. However, one must show the technique and how to do it before bunkai and one can't really perform what I consider to be real bunkai until the kata performer knows the kata. Does this make sense to you?
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I suppose it depends on how bunkai is trained.

    We train bunkai in a number of different ways. For example:

    1) As a partner set - One student goes through the kata and other students attack the first student going through the moves of the kata. The emphasis is on quick transitions and flow for multiple attacker scenario. The attacks are specific to work with the movements of the kata. This type of training can happen at the same time or after a kata is learned.

    2) As test requirements - Basically, depending on belt rank, there are certain bunkai requirements that go along with learning kata. This bunkai tends to be fairly watered down, but may be the first bunkai learned as a kata is learned.

    3) As short form (principles in action) - This can be learned independently of kata. The short form is the fundamendal/principles in action off of the initial response. For example, if an arm comes around the head, first response can be to "turtle" and learn to lock the elbow of the potential attacker. This is because you do not know if it is a choke, a neck break, a knife to the throat, a clinch, or a friendly hug. The same initial response or short form must be of value in all situations. I mentioned another short form, that is the learning how to look side-to-side in a way that allows the brain to process a threat as quickly as possible. There are principles on how to perceive things in different ways, some for quick assessment, some for processing information at a later time, etc. These things can be introduced for self-defense in less than 15 minutes of one-on-one time... they may take much longer depending on the experience of the person to fully understand and be able to use under fire... they should also be able to integrate short form into the movements in kata. Point is that it is independent of kata, but kata can reflect these short forms and people in the know can see if it is there or not.

    4) As technique (e.g. ara waza/severe technique) - This is probably the closest to real bunkai I have seen. It consists of application and variants of application that are represented in kata. This type of bunkai, is independent of kata. Kata might have a representation of the technique, but only by practicing the technique and training it under fire can it truly be understood. IME, this bunkai is best to come after a student has a good foundation in the fundamentals and in the short form (principles). This is not watered down technique but technique that can include all the pressure point strikes, breaks, throws, strikes to vital areas, etc. This is where the devil is in the details. There is a reason for everything and a reason when something is done, why something is done, and how something is done.

    There are other ways to train bunkai in addition to the above. The point is that the kata is just the visible part of a martial art... the key is in the supplemental training.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  9. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I think it depends on what you understand bunkai to be and how caught up you are in semantics.

    In my opinion the bunkai of a Kata is still the bunkai of that Kata, even if you don't know it is called bunkai or that it is from a Kata.

    However I would argue that a person is not truly doing the kata until they know applicable bunkai, which means (from my perspective) that in order to learn the Kata properly application and paired training must precede solo training.
     
  10. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I can't really disagree and think we are pretty much on the same page. I do think you can master doing a kata without knowing its application at all. In that situation, you have mastered a dance and haven't actually mastered the kata if you will. To master a kata, you need to know the application of each and every technique within it and do so proficiently in a fight (at least a free-spar).
     
  11. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Interesting formalization of what has always been pretty informally done in my world. There is bunkai we do with a white belt or green belt to illustrate basic principles and then there is bunkai that is a step away from free sparring. Everything has its value and I appreciate your taking the time to share this with us.
     

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