OK first my apologies if this has been raised before but I decided to create this after what Mark Spada posted in a seperate thread... Back in the 1980s there was no doubt that Hatsumi was claiming to be teaching Ninjutsu. After all there were magazine articles that said so... http://jigokudojo.org/silent.htm He was also writing for ninja magazine, writing books with the title "Ninja" in them and talking at length about Ninja techniques and even said that ninpo should be offered to the world. http://www.usadojo.com/articles/master-masters.htm We even know that in the early days people were issued certificates in the name of Togakure Ryu ninjutsu, and most seminars were advertised (or at least the ones I saw in 1985, 86) as such. Yet now there seems to be a back lash against anyone who was learning this art back in the early days that today claims to teach ninjutsu. Now i'm not talking about the Neo ninjas here who read a few books, but the ones that studied at seminars in the 1980s. There is also a lot made of frauds here on MAP so I am raising these two questions... 1/ If Hatsumi was teaching Ninjutsu back in the 1980s (either himself or through his students) then is it OK for people who were around at that time to teach the Ninjutsu they were taught? 2/ If Hatsumi was not teaching Ninjutsu (either himself or through his students), yet was claiming to be teaching Ninjutsu, does this not make him a fraud and someone who was advertising under false promises? Just a thought.
I think it comes down to context and definitions (doesn't it always?). For instance, we label everything we do as Ninjutsu.... but what ninjutsu we teach (and yes, it is there) only makes up a small part of what we do. And both these statements are correct. The definition that Mark seems to be using (and correct me if this isn't right, Mark) is refering to the specific skill set that gets labeled as "ninjutsu": in other words, the espionage, stealth, entering, information gathering type aspects. This is where the whole "ninjutsu is not a martial art" thing comes from as well, as it is not a combative form, although it does delve quite heavily into psychological warfare, strategy and tactics. In this definition, we have, over my time, covered surveilance and anti-surveilance methods, tracking, stealth movement, disguise and infiltration, "reading" people, and more. The other definition (the one I capitalise) refers to any skill set associated with the Ninja (or what we would now refer to as "ninja"), which includes the combative arts associated, such as Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu (both passing through Momochi Sandayu). By that definition, as we limit ourselves in my organisation to only those ninja-related arts, everything we do is Ninjutsu. This second definition (and the related context of overall skill set associated, as well as the implication of an overarching philosophy stemming from the ninja-related arts in his keep) is how I feel Hatsumi Sensei was using the term back then, rather than the first. So was he teaching Ninjutsu? Yes. Was he teaching ninjutsu? Yes, but that was not the main focus (my Chief Instructor has mentioned a number of stories about such teachings, one favourite has Hatsumi out walking his dogs [my Instrucor was carrying one of the older ones....] with a group of Western students, and suddenly began discussing/teaching the various walking methods, including the stealth methods, ones for endurance, speed etc. Steve Hayes has also mentioned similar stories, such as ones at the early Shadows of Iga Festivals, where Hatsumi, as they arrived, made some comments about approaching the group without anyone seeing them, and later gave some education on climbing and scaling methods [to the effect that the method learnt from the SWAT team being shown was rather against the methods of the ninja, as it was too much of a "good guy" image, and was too easily seen by anyone watching]). In terms of the Togakure Ryu name, that was just the banner the entire group of teachings came under, as it has the longest list of Soke, and therefore got "prime position", so to speak. I feel that if Gyokko had more Soke in it's history that Togakure, we would be arguing now that anyone who's teaching Kukishin sword shouldn't use the name Kosshijutsu to describe what they do, as that was only part of it....
Chris Parker posted Excellent post Which illustrates why I shy away from the term Ninjutsu and use "Hikendo" as the term "Ninjutsu" just leads to arguments galore about what is and what is not ninjutsu and who can and cannot teach it. Certainly the term "Ninjutsu" or "Ninja" does have many definitions 1/ Techniques of stealth, camouflage, information gathering etc 2/ Being part of a social/ethnic group e.g being raised from a ninja ancestry 3/ A spy attached to the army but nothing to do with Iga/Koga etc 4/ A member of the Iga no Mono (or other group) from Iga 5/ Having a particular mind set 6/ Training in the arts that make up the arts of the ninja (Ninja Juhakkei) 7/ Or studying the Ryu etc etc 8/ Or someone who simply displays perserverance and endurance And we can have pages and pages of discussion on what meaning, or meanings are correct. i also notice you say... So you are learning Ninjutsu? Or am I taking you out of context. However it still doesn't go beyond that fact that Hatsumi pushed the whole thing about black costumes, masks etc (see Andrew Adams book), and although one could argue that what he was doing was demonstrating ninjutsu and teaching non ninjutsu arts to his students, he certainly gave the impresion that this is what he was teaching. Also hasn't it also been said that So in this respect, is it not then OK for a person that has studied under Hatsumi, or teachers of hatsumi to call what they do "Ninjutsu"? (PS I know that Ninjutsu and Ninja are mutually exclusive)
Thanks. I can understand shying away from the term, most of all if you are moving away from the more "classical" skills and actions as well. And, really, the arguments do get rather tiresome.... If I may, I'd like to comment on my take on each. Some I agree with, others, well... I think this is part of the equation which is a necessary part, at least when looking at the singular skill set known as ninjutsu. But there needs to be more, which you have included in the rest of this. Being part of it, in a modern context, is impossible. However one aspect of a historically valid system that was called ninjutsu requires such as part of it's heritage (this is not truly necessary for the skills, or a section of a syllabus such as in Katori Shinto Ryu, where it is part of a larger whole). This again is part of the skill set. But the skills do not necessarily equate to a Ninjutsu tradition, which is where the distinction lies. Historically valid, yeah. Provided that particular mindset is congruent with the traditional aspects and teachings, and have come from such (which takes out the Neo groups who have no connection to the historical aspects, and therefore can only really imitate the mindset). This is where our definition (for our schools) of Ninjutsu takes shape. Koto Ryu isn't ninjutsu, it's Koppojutsu, however it is a skill set associated with the ninja, and such skills are part of the Ninja Juhakkei. Has to be the right one, though.... and this ties into the mindset aspect as well. No. The connection to the other aspects, the historical links, the skill sets, the mindset as noted etc have to be present. Otherwise it's like saying that anyone who hits someone with an empty hand is doing Karate, and anyone who uses fists and feet are doing Tae Kwon Do. It's a lot more than a purely literal rendering of the phrase used, a lot of context as detailed above needs to be present. Well, the definition I mention has to be part of the context, doesn't it? The definition that we use (and again, that I capitalise to differentiate it from the singular skill set of espionage etc) for Ninjutsu is that the skills are associated with the ninja of ancient Japan, so in that sense, yes, I study Ninjutsu. Part of that study includes the study of ninjutsu.... Most of the "mask" shots in that book don't seem to be Hatsumi, though. The few shots including a headwear are not 'masks' so much as tied coverings. There is an important distinction there, I feel. In terms of teaching non-ninjutsu and calling it ninjutsu, again it comes down to whether or not he was teaching ninjutsu, or if he was teaching martial arts related to the ninja (as well as a few that are not) under the banner heading of Ninjutsu. I feel that the latter is closer to the truth. I think it also has a lot to do with Takamatsu feeling that Ninpo was the essence of all martial arts, and the ultimate expression of them (this could very obviously have many many meanings there) and Hatsumi Sensei would have been following that. Of course, the only way to know would be to ask him. Personally, I feel that it is fine, provided the correct criteria are met. The further away you move from the arts that meet the Ninjutsu or ninjutsu criteria, the less appropriate it is. (And PS, not always...)
Good post, I think you have enlarged very well on my small examples. I agree, and yet I believe Hatsumi has given rank for their military background and has stated that people with this background have a similar idea. Remember how Hatsumi met the old SAS guy, and he said it was like shaking hands with Takamatsu. I was there at the time by the way. I guess i'm with you on that. I got into this art because it was apparantly Ninjutsu, and its still this i'm interested in. I wish my books weren't packed up, I have some Andrew Adams magazine articles prior to the book. If its the latter then it could be seen as a little fraudulent which anyone other than Hatsumi, if they tried such a tactic would be hammered on here as a fraud.
In terms of the military personnel ranking and Hatsumi's comments when shaking hands with the SAS individual, I'm fine with that, actually. And I don't think it really affects my comments, honestly. The ranking is Hatsumi's to do with as he wishes and sees fit, and the comment about the SAS person reminding him of shaking hands with Takamatsu, that doesn't surprise me in the slightest, especially if the ex-SAS member was very experienced, I'd really expect such a similarity to be noticable. But that doesn't make the SAS "modern ninja" or anything similar. In terms of the Andy Adams book, if you have it around (and not in a box somewhere), the distinction between "mask" and "headwear" I'm making is found as follows: "Mask" - Page 50 (probing with a saya on a sword tip.... and really, don't they have the entire concept upside down?); page 92 (archery with a hankyu... with a very Western draw there, it must be said); page 109 (kunoichi using kuji... which looks like a still from a movie); page 133 (ninja entering a house... again looks like a movie still); page 145 (ninja in a corner between two walls... another movie still?). "Headwear" - Page 27 (white "snow" outfit); page 93, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 (Hatsumi's uke in the combative sequences, which are all Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu kata, interestingly, no Kukishin, no Shinden Fudo, no Takagi, but some Togakure kamae at times - there is, however, a shot of what seems to be a Kumogakure Ryu Oni mask on page 144); page 151 (Hatsumi himself). Oh, and for interests sake, we then also have the shots of Hatsumi and students training in white do-gi on pages 162-3. Not sure that it would be called fraudulant immediately, really, provided the connection was still there. In a similar way Kawakami claims to teach ninjutsu, however his physical teachings are apparently based in Shinden Fudo Ryu Yawara (distinct and unrelated to the X-Kan Shinden Fudo Ryu, apparently), Ichi Jyo Ho Koppojutsu, Toda Ryu Jutte, Shizuka Ryu Kusarigamajutsu, and Izumoshin Ryu Kenjutsu. This is all taught under the banner name of Banke Shinobiden (Ban Family Shinobi Transmissions), despite the fact that none of those arts are "ninjutsu" (which is apparently taught, but from a seperate source again, coming from the Shiga family). So Hatsumi's naming convention there is not even unique that way.... even Tanemura Sensei uses the term "Ninpo" in a very similar way to describe the Genbukan syllabus (differentiating it from the Jujutsu of the KJJR).
Which then gets me to the point that if we have been taught Ninjutsu, whats the problem in claiming to teach or study it? If we havent, and only the name has been used as a marketting tool, then that maybe something else.
Here is the problem. If you sign up in the military to go to sniper school, first they send you to basic training. That is where you learn basic skills that are used by all soldiers. Then they send you to infantry school. Only then do you go to the school where you learn the specific skills snipers use. Schools like Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu were the foundation that the later teaching of Togakure ryu ninjutsu was built on. I just taught a seminar on Togakure ryu last weekend and it really was obvious that if you did not have prior training in those two schools you would not get a lot out of Togakure ryu training. So, since the Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu are part of the process of learning Togakure ryu ninjutsu, if someone came to Hatsumi and wanted to learn ninjutsu it is only natural that they learn those first as part of their training. If you have never mastered Togakure ryu, then claiming to teach ninjutsu based on your Koto and Gyokko ryu experiences is like someone who never got past infantry training claiming to teach you the sniper skills he learned in the military. Of course, if someone really wants to use the term for marketing, I doubt we will ever get them to admit that they know they should be using another term. I have run across too many self made ninja masters defending their actions of calling their karate moves 'ninjutsu' with various excuses about it being a 'feeling', 'philosophy' or something else.
Don Roley posted I've heard (and used) that analogy before, but when doing basic training in the military its called "Basic Training". Its not called sniper training because a lot of soldiers won't go on to be snipers. Now in the past I guess a lot of wariors may have been taught say gyokko Ryu but it didn't mean that they went on to study ninjutsu or become ninja. So if all we were doing was the basics (i.e Gyokko Ryu etc) then wouldn't it have been better to have called it Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu etc rather than "Ninjutsu" ?
Unfortunately I can only add thanks for the above post by Don once. So I'm adding this post simply to emphasise how much 'thanks' it should get
Maybe. But that is the way it is. And you have to remember, that prior to the 80s when Hatsumi was mainly dealing with Japanese, there are not many folks who dropped out before they completed the whole process and started doing their own thing. From Hatsumi's standpoint, he was justified in saying he was doing sniper training because everyone else went all the way through to the end.
Don also posted Which is why I don't call what I do "Ninjutsu" I agree. On my website I do state that... Which is what it was called at the time. And you have got to agree that the word "ninjutsu" is a generic term which is why we are on the Ninjutsu section of MAP and not the Gyokko ryu section. Well i'm certianly not doing that.
Yes but it doesn't mean it was right. Well thats as maybe but he was still issueing certificates in the name of Togakure Ryu to people that had done no more than a few weeks or months training. Question Do you think our security company would be justified in giving out qualifications in CPO (3 week Bodyguard course) if they had only just taken the 3 day security course whilst us knowing that they were going to do the CPO course, and of course knowing that some of the security course is taught as part of the CPO course?
Garth, the whole rank thing was very ad hoc. Stephen Hayes was the first person to get a black belt because they never needed it in a small group and he convinced Hatsumi he needed one to be taken seriously. I think that it was a huge case of catch up that really did not work out as well as it could have. No one really got qualifications in anything if they did not pass the fifth dan test. That qualified them to teach Bujinkan. There may have been confusion, but now that we know more facts those that want to do the honorable thing can. Those that want to use it for marketing will find excuses. I was an 11-B in the military, an infantry rifleman. The basic training I went through was at Fort Benning. That is also where I went through infantry training. I think that when the army still had a sniper school it was at Benning. I know that the airborne, ranger and infantry officer schools are at Benning. Knowing some of the guys I went through training with, I can imagine some of them not quite knowing when one school ended and another started. (As proud as I am of my service, it really is true that if you have half a mind to join the infantry- that's enough.:wow I never even learned to use rifle scopes in my days in the military. If someone thought they were going through sniper school but found out they did not make it that far I can imagine three responses. Most honest folks would not mention sniper training at all and merely list the infantry training they got. Outright frauds would still claim to have learned to be snipers and might try to use photos of them at the Benning school for boys to convince folks. Then there are the sneaky marketing types that would mention something like the following on their web page, Not quiet a lie, but deceitful all the same. You can see some parallels with ninjutsu and they way people market themselves to attract students.
Don Roley posted I thought that others received it before such as Donn Draeger But that being the case then giving Hayes a grade in ninjutsu was the seed (I wont get into the claims of Hatsumi asking people to teach Ninjutsu in their own countries and send money back to him) that continued, and to be honest Hatsumi (seeing what was happening) should have changed what he was claiming to teach earlier. but he didn't. In fact he was living quite happily in the Ninja world and calling himself the only real ninja. Your not kidding There may have been confusion, but now that we know more facts those that want to do the honorable thing can. Those that want to use it for marketing will find excuses. Which again is why I dont claim its Ninjutsu that I teach
No, Draeger never got any sort of rank from Hatsumi. In case you did not notice, he did end up changing the name. And I really hope this is not going to be another one of your bashing Hatsumi. You don't even know the situation with Draeger, so it should be clear there is a lot of other things you are not aware of about the use of names. If you want to learn, then maybe you can sit back and listen for the next few years.
My pologies Don "Terry Dobson". I was umpiring a game of 40k with my kids when I wrote that. Getting old memory failing. yes and the reason he did that was not necesarily to dispel the ninja myth. Yes, but not from you Don
Understand the confusion if it involves kids, but Dobson got his (nidan?) black belt after he read about it in an interview with Hayes in Black Belt. Ellis Amdur was there and wrote about it.
Dont get me wrong Norman, Don may be a great guy to learn from, but before he becomes someone I can listen to he really needs to drops his agendas. Maybe its just me, but thats the thing (and only thing) about Don that makes him someone I have little respect for. And I guess his feelings are mutual
