Weapons of MoroLand Mindanao

err... you do realize that nothing you've posted here refutes what Raymond Suba has posted in regards to Filipino bows right?

Did you intentionally dodge his question about the draw weight of bows in the Philipines after you told him he was completely wrong?

Or was that just chance?

 

I believe I covered it in a post prior to that one you are using as a reference.
But I'll post the below site also.

http://www.bowhuntinginfo.com/Tips/TooMuchWeight.htm

I mentioned he was wrong about the 85 pound in the Philippines. If you want to go to other locations in the world and talk Bow ok, we will go higher, but not relating to the Philippines, I am thinking.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/draw-length-weight.htm

Anyway that is what I put up for reference, we can discuss other cultures and bow design if you want.

Gary

 

Hi again,

If you want to talk Bows of other countries, here is a link for the long bow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

Could we say they were in the Philippines, I don't think so.

I know the limitations of being able to draw heavy weights and most people (strong men) have a very difficult time shooting a bow over 65 pounds very many times. They say there is a lot of differences of opinion about the draw weight of a bow and the strength it takes to pull it back to the draw weight it was designed for.

If a bow was designed for an arrow that was strong enough to take the pressure that the heavy bows deliver the arrow would be of a different strength it is very complex about weight and actual draw weight.

Say you have a bow at 28'' inch draw weight of 100 lbs. But most are say drawing 20'' similar to a small mans arm spread and a larger mans. The true draw weight of the 20" is much less than 100 lbs.

http://www.howardhillarchery.com/legend.html

Some Cross bows are very heavy and shoot a heavier bolt because of it and are cranked into position because of the need for assistance, man is limited, similar to what can be picked up one hundred times, or just once.

Lots of opinions, take a bow made to fly an arrow the furthest. The arrow is small and light and the bow is short and has a heavy pull not like a Long Bow at all. More like the composite bows of Mongol origin.

But the bows in the Philippines were not like that at all.

Hope that helps or it might be confusing.

 

lol... Did you dodge my question on purpose?
Or was that an accident as well?

Can you refute the draw stregnth of Filipino bows as Raymond Suba has posted. The one that you are calling hugely wrong.

Posting a link about European long bows neither refutes it nor does it answer my question to you. In fact the question I asked you had nothing to do with European long bows.

I am frankly interested in whether or not you actually know the draw strength of bows in the Philipines... and if not how you can possibly say that Raymond Suba's estimation of their draw strength is hugely wrong?

 

I am frankly interested in whether or not you actually know the draw strength of bows in the Philipines... and if not how you can possibly say that Raymond Suba's estimation of their draw strength is hugely wrong?
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Do I know for sure, what they were exactly, NO.

Could I guess, sure. But I believe that I'll have to do some more research to come up with an exact weight of reference.

I might have over reacted in my evaluation of the weights, since Raymond mentioned 85 pounds, as Raymond said he should have lowered his mentioning of the weights, I should not have gone off like I did.

For that I guess it is time to apologize to Raymond, and others.

I'll try to find out. I have been in touch with a collector and I posted his site about the sword I found, I will e-mail him.

Gary

 

Can you provide any credible evidence of this?
I've not seen anything to date that even comes close to supporting this.

I think you might want to look up the phenomena of simultaneous independant invention. There are any number of examples of this from the light bulb to slavery to certain types of railways. I'm sure if you looked you could find dozens upon dozens of other examples.

Why wouldn't the same phenomena apply to weapons and methods of warfare?

 

I am thinking that the Romans and Greeks being in Europe had a pretty good influence on the Spanish and the Portuguese, and since Alexander came along and ruled over a vast empire the intermingling of War swords, spears etc..
Kris and Kalis and other swords were here when the Spanish arrived. I mentioned information came from other countries as well. China and India but not much left but the sword and steel items it appears and porcelian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword

Trade was a big deal and the Junks of China came and went long before the Spanish.

Slip the jab mentions: I think you might want to look up the phenomena of simultaneous independant invention. There are any number of examples of this from the light bulb.....

True but I think if you look there is a thread of a connection for example the light bulb. (Franklin was in Europe and came back with the light bulb if I am not mistaken). But that is another item to discuss some other thread I am thinking.

Or take the fact that much was lost and then found, the amazing amount of country that was conqured by the Khans and what they would have intermingled into other countries. The spread of information is just coming about again, the Book 1421 for example.

I believe it was a 2 way street at times and at other times it was not.

Independent invention, I'll have to check it out more. But we have been around a very long time it appears (man) And the puzzle is getting put together again and it will probably be lost as in the past, because of destroying civilizations with war etc..

The reason for the thread is for this discussion and I am happy others are joining.

So what do you think "slip the jab" all independant and simultaneous? or could it overlap? Sardinia is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia

So much for just a few thousand of years.

Gary

 

Again I haven't found that you've provided any credible evidence that the Spartans directly influenced the weapons of the Philipines. Frankly I won't hold my breath waiting for it either.

As with anything in history there it's likely that there is going to be a mixture of simultaneous independant invention and borrowed or directly influenced technology/idea/methods. I'd think that is rather obvious.

Transmission of technology takes on many guises but one really has to do a lot more than just watch the travesty of film that was 300 and then jump in and start making connections that simply don't exist to arrive at any credible conclusion.

All of this made all the more ridiculous that 300 was by and large based on Frank Millers graphic novel... not historical accuracy... which is a much more massive and broad subject as we only have accounts written primarily by the Greeks centuries after the actual battle was alledged to have happened.

That the Persians had the largest empire in the ancient world to that point says volumes about their ability as warriors. Not something you're likely to be able to get out of that crap film... that has them running around like so many fumbling monkeys.

You can continue to post all the links you want... but until you sort out the methodology your using to arrive at your conclusions... you're assertions are pretty much the stuff of fantasy.

 

I am not so sure of fantasy, but I am working on trying to link some thing up or not, makes no difference, I could take either side I enjoy for the sake of seeking an trying to discuss the matter. I did not see the film so I'll have to take your word for it as being crap.

I am looking for more information the Persians ruled until 300bc when the Alexander the Great and his warriors went clear up into the punjab of India, so the sword of the Greeks is getting closer. I am thinking.

*************
The Bow and archey items we were taking about I e-mailed a collector and he said this.

Hello Gary,
I have only heard of the bow being used in the Northern Philippines, highland Luzon. I know they were used for hunting, and see no reason that they would not be used in warfare. The ones I have seen have rattan or vine strings, and I would guess that the draw-weights are on the lower end of the spectrum.

There is not much published that I know of on the subject.
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So I am working on this also.

Thanks for the discussion, again I am sorry I went off a little on the draw weight deal with you Raymond.

Gary

 

BGile,
you started with an interesting topic, but unfortunately a few posts down the line, i see your attempt as nothing more than a rather poor facsimile of what is known as internet trolling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(internet)

nice try, tho...

 

Spunjer
I am searching for information that is out there but others are not willing to discuss or if they do they are truly ingrained in not allowing any other thought.
The situation is similar to the various groups that call for unity but are really not, they mention it but they are unable to discuss anything out side the box.

What I am being blamed for, but in reality I am the one searching and asking for more information.

I like this part of what a troll is****************

JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, is -- is the troll the scary thing under the bridge, or is it a fishing technique?...
MR. PHILLIPS [attorney for eBay]: For my clients, it's been the scary thing under the bridge....
JUSTICE KENNEDY: I mean, is that what the troll is?
MR. PHILLIPS: Yes, I believe that's... what it is, although...maybe we should think of it more as Orcs, now that we have a new generation.

*************************

But you can think what you want, you are not alone that is for sure.

In another thread about "Kali and if it is the mother art" some have even gone so far as posting their arguements, you can find them almost word for word in a book about the origins of Escrima and nothing to denote that is where it came from they use a reference and they try to make you believe it is of their thought and not the book they took it from.

Using reference, to point out something is not bad, as long as you allow others to know where you are getting the information. You can do it to show your side of the discussion or you can show both sides of the discussion. What happens much on these thread is someone always wants to be the winner and not the searcher or finder of the truth. Unfortunate for sure.

If trolling is fishing I am guilty, if trolling is what I believe it is, As in Three Billy Goat Gruffs, the thing under the bridge, others are more prone to that than I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff

My thoughts on it anyway.

Gary

 

if you are so entrenched in your convinction, then why even bring it up for discussion? a lot of members has stated their view and shot your theory time and time again, but yet you are convinced that yours is the truth. discussion with open mind is enlightening, but discussion such as yours is clearly trolling, my friend. i believe it's the classic "i will try to stay civilize while i watch everyone get teed off" technique. one of the easiest style of trolling but you seem to screw this one up by not giving any reliable referrence. i notice you like to use wikipedia as referrence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

as you can see, anyone can contribute without having to go thru being double checked for its authenticity. so you might as well quote john the bum on main street as well.

nice try tho. next time you want to hone your skill on trolling, go to mma.tv and learn from the pros, lol. i'll see you there...

 

if you are so entrenched in your convinction, then why even bring it up for discussion? a lot of members has stated their view and shot your theory time and time again, but yet you are convinced that yours is the truth. discussion with open mind is enlightening, but discussion such as yours is clearly trolling, my friend. i believe it's the classic "i will try to stay civilize while i watch everyone get teed off" technique. one of the easiest style of trolling but you seem to screw this one up by not giving any reliable referrence. i notice you like to use wikipedia as referrence:
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Spunjer,

You will notice I apologized for getting irritated something I try not to do for it does no good. I did mess up and went off about Bow's and Archery and then mentioned my long standing with the topic which I should have not done, for it makes you vulnerable when you do that.

I am truly interested in what others say, and yes I use Wiki a lot for it is a fairly good laymans location for information. I used the same site on another discussion in Kenpo in fact both that you have done in your last posts are ones I have done of late myself.

So I have to wonder what is your game

I don't believe anyone has really shown as much to disprove what I am trying to explain, yes others disagree but they have not shown any refrences as I do to strengthen their position IMHO...Or sometimes weaken it.

I'll check out the games site you mention, (mma.tv) as in many trolls. But really I am not into games. I am into knowledge and not just unsubstantiated opinions, I reference more than most, and will continue to do it. Thanks for your concern.

This FMA location is very tight knit and know most each other, I notice when someone from out of the box post's they get driven away as a rule but I am interested enough to stay at this point in time but it is spring and I'll be getting busy with things to do so I won't post as much...Which will make others happy I am sure.

Regards, Gary

 

i believe this is good reading and click through for examples

 

I think that you'll find that maybe Alexander's armies were not one big homogenous mass of Greeks by the time he invaded India. I could be wrong... but armies of the Ancient world were usually full of mercenaries from other places and other ethnicities. Each brining with them their own technology... be it bow and arrow... spear and lance or what have you.

The Greeks themselves... were more a collection of varying tribes and city states. Perhaps not even all ethnically what we've come to think of as Greek. But maybe someone with more specific knowledge of Alexander's armies can post.

Additionally perhaps this is the topic for a seperate thread as it really careens of the topic of weapons of Moroland and Mindanao.

 

I'll have to read through that later tonight. looks informative but lacking in pictures.

 

raymund et al,

actually the pics i provided where from that same link. i was hesitant in adding the report since there were some erroneous information in it. please take it with a grain of salt...

 

Book Arnis by Mark Wiley

The above mentioned book "Arnis" is compiled information by many authors. Good book.

The origins and also what I have been talking about is in that book and some of the arguements pro and con are in there. It is one of the reasons I started this thread. If any have the book check it out very interesting to say the least.

I have mentioned "Gatka" and the "soti" of the Sikhs of India and the weapons of combat they used, I'll mention it again with a location to look.

http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/gatka.htm

Just a brief start it is very interesting, I can add many more but I'll just add one extra...

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Gatka

I believe this is interesting and helps to show who else has weapons, similar.

Regards, Gary

 

Hi,
This "owlet" just came out, in the news...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoglaux

But here it is in "Wiki" Good for many things.

Peru is an interesting location...Many things there in the highlands that are now explainable because of the book 1421 and the website 1421.tv

Things make much more sense, as they are closing in on what actually has occured in the last 1000 years or so. And the political agendas are not the way it is going National Geographic is one of the organizations in the forefront and have been for over 100 years I believe.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/?fs=www9.nationalgeographic.com


Different topic but interesting shows how National Geo is a major player.

Regards,
Gary

 

Hi,
The bows are taller then the people, some of them are as small as 4' none over 5' they say. This picture is of the group in the north on the Pacific side.